| Author | Message | ||
  Anonymous |
I have been reading some of the information that ROBERT has given and am very impressed. He is extreanly smart about this subject and I AGREE WITH ALL THAT HE HAS SAID SO FAR. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE SCIENCE OF YOUR ART MATERIALS. | ||
Robert |
Dear A... I reread my posts and they are strident and out of line. Please accpet my apologies and enjoy your art making. Again, regrets that I was so obnoxious. Robert | ||
Anonymous |
Well Robert, as you seem to be an authority, in many areas, and I wish to return to my painting, I will bow to your superior knowledge, even though I have read to the contrary. I bid you adieu and a happier life. | ||
Robert |
Nonsense! It doesn't enter through the pores. I have a degree in Biology and am quite familiar with the process you describe. Pthalocyanine and Ultramarine (not a dye, BTW) are NOT carcinogenic. There is no usually health label associated with them. In the case of some brqnds manufacturing processes a trace amount of lead (a part per billion), less than in drinking water, shows up and, nbecasue of the wording of the labeling law, tubes get labeled as toxic when they are not--this occurs in the case of Grumbacher Academy and Thalo Blue. I checked my facts by contacting Grumbacher on this. Years ago many paints were toxic-now only a few Cadmiums, Cobalts, Viridian. You and I keep going around in circles about this. When you say most watercolors are carcinogenic you are wrong, dead wrong about the current pigments--not the historical ones. In the case of the above cobalts and cadmiums the danger lies in inhalation as with an airbrush. I will not post on this again so you are free to one more time post the false assertions that TODAY's watercolors are mostly carcinopgenic and that they enter through the pores. (BTW if they did enter through the pores, which they do not, the process would not be osmosis. Gasolinbe cannot soak thorugh the pores either BTW.) Let me give you a counter example--Excessive salt water will dehydrate the cells (through osmosis BTW)and kill a person. Why is it that people who are immersed in the sea for hours do not have salt water cellular dehydration? Becasue the skin is a barrier. You are just saying what you think makes sense even if there is no knowledge behind it. I feel obliged to point that out so that others will not be misled about the toxicity of watercolor pigments or about the likelihood of the ones that are toxic entering through the skin. It doesn't happen. But I wouldn't airbrush with Cadmiums becasue of the inhalation factor not would I point my brush with my mouth. Most of the detailed literature regarding the labeling conformations specifices the inhalation danger, BTW. So go ahead and post your nonsense, but my post will stand to refute it. And BTW "a lot of watercolorists in the past died at the age of 70" can be explained by a lot of factors. | ||
Anonymous |
Well, if my post from last night had not been erased/removed, you might be singing another tune. It does not have to pass through the skin. It enters through the pores. Am I correct no one here has ever had any dealings with gasoline or solvents? Carcinogens are cadmium, the dye in french ultramarine blue,copper pthalocyanine, chromium and so on. As to the synthetic dyes only the manufacturer knows. I am not looking for a fight. It is just a lot of watercolorists have died around age 70 from using these items. Proceed at your own risk. be smart, work smart. | ||
Anonymous |
No, Osmosis is the passage of water across a membrane from an area of high concentration to an area of lower concentration. In the context of the original post that said toxic paints entered the body through osmosis through the skin, the statement was incorrect. The skin has layers of dead cells that serve as a barrier. | ||
Anonymous |
For us regular peeps, and just catching on now, OSMOSIS is the diffusion of water. | ||
Anon 12409 |
An Anonymous wrote "To anon-12409, I have researched it. Extensively. " He/she had written earlier "I have not read any watercolor labels lately but ..." Please pardon my confusion. | ||
Anonymous |
To anon-12409, I have researched it. Extensively. | ||
Kukana |
By the way, some one mentioned Mameri Indian Yellow.. I love it too. If you're in the mood to try something new, this would be a good one. | ||
Kukana |
You mean Cad Red isn't a good substitue for red food coloring?? Darn. My biggest challenge is that I go so mind dead when im painting that I forget which one is my painting water and which is my Perrier. I've been known to drink the paint water and paint with the bubbly water. OOps! | ||
Dake |
Many of the old masters really were old when they died. NOt necessarily really old but old enough considering the amount of lead and other metals of mass destruction that they came into contact with. I think we tend to worry too much. Common sense tells me not to smear cadmium red or flake white on my toast. | ||
Anonymous |
Currently only cadmiums and cobalts have health warning labels (cerulean contains cobalt). The other toxics in the last few years have been replaced by non-toxic. One exception is that the stringent CA. requirements ask for a label no matter how small the amt. of lead. There are some pigments tha, in the natural processing, contain a a part per 10 billion of lead and although it is less than found in drinking water, the label must still go on. Grumbacher Academy Thalo Blue is an example. Safe but bears a label. | ||
Polly Kiely |
The old paper labels have no pigment info on them and many of the colors (30+) are in the form of whole pans which have even less info on them. The colors are named in only three languages instead of five. The conclusion seems that I'll use the Aurora Yellow, keep the Indian Yellow, Gen. for a conversation piece and put the reds mentioned away. I may do a swatch test on the Carmine abd Vermillion, (Holbein lists a vermilion that they claim is permanent) and report back in a year. It does't seem sporting for WN to sell $eries 5 colors that are fugitive. | ||
John Preston |
Gracious! If any of you are even half right I'm the walking dead!! Can't manage to keep paint off of me and I eat carbohydrates as well. | ||
anon. #12409 |
" I have not read any watercolor labels lately but with the exception of a few earth colors the rest have varying degrees of toxcicity. " This is an irresponsible statement. Almost all current watercolors, as I posted below are non toxic (except for cobalts and cadmiums). You might try researching this before you post. | ||
Anon. #12409 |
True... osmosis (ie. passive transport) is the mechanism for entrance of water into the cells via the blood stream, **but** the integumentary layer (skin) is a barrier of dead cells that do not engange in transporting water via osmosis. The danger behind the heavy metal pigments such as cadmium is that when inhaled as a fine mist (airbrush) or a dry dust they enter the blood through the lungs. But they are harmless in water unless it is ingested (where it enters the blood via the stomach lining). Do a little research and you will find that the toxicity ratings on paints has to do with their danger when inhaled or ingested. | ||
Anonymous |
nonsense! | ||
Anonymous |
Since the body is 86% to 90% water you will find the watercolors will pass through the skin through a process called osmosis. After it enters the body it is nicely dispersed by a process called difusion. I have not read any watercolor labels lately but with the exception of a few earth colors the rest have varying degrees of toxcicity. | ||
diffrent anonymous |
Just the facts, mam: Most artist grade watercolors mostly are not toxic. The cadmiums and cobalts are clearly maked as hazardous but this is mainly if they are inhaled as a mist (airbrush) or as a powder. Otherwise the student grades and professional are more alike than different in composition and most are not labeled with a hazardous or toxic label. | ||
Anonymous |
Be very careful of any artist's pigments as most of them are toxic. A lot of carcinogens. | ||
Anonymous |
Aurora Yellow is Cadmium yellow medium. Cyan Blue is pthalocyanine (Winsor ) blue Red shade. The others are fugitive and should not be used for work intend to last. Most of the reds are best replaced with versions of PV-19, quinacridone violet. The scarlet vermillion with w/n cadmium scarlet or maimerblu cadmium red light (same hue). | ||
Anonymous |
Re. Indian Yellow-- Maimeriblu makes a unique Indian yellow that is stunning. It can be brushed back into dark washes for some superb bounced light effects. Added to pthalo green it makes some really great Hooker's greens, sap greens, and olive greens depending upon amount. Why am I giving my secret weapon away??? | ||
John Preston |
PPS. That lightfast replacement for Indian Yelow was PY153 Nickel Dioxine Yellow. W&N and Daniel Smith have it as "New Gamboge". Rowney, Sennelier and Utrecht have it as "Indian Yellow" (surprise!) W&N lists an Indian Yellow which is PY153+PO62. Has some Benzimidazolone Orange in it... maybe they feel it matches their original formulation? | ||
John Preston |
PS. Handprint.com lists the new pigments that most closely mimic the older non permanent ones. I know he has a lightfast version of Indian Yellow though I don't remember what it is. I DO think it was available fron more than one brand. Daniel Smith has a lightfast Carmine a lot of people like. | ||
John Preston |
Polly, Are there by any chance pigment numbers on the side of the tube? They would be alpha numeric combinations like PB15, PR122, etc. That may clue you in to the permanence, toxicity, etc. I'm guessing the Carmine is not lightfast since W&N lists a Permanent Carmine now. Alizarin Carmine is probably a darker shade of Alizarin (PR83). Indian Yellow Genuine isn't permanent, and was at one time made as you described. It's intriguing to have a tube though. I'll bet Cyan is a shade of Pthalo (PB15) and is lightfast. The Scarlet Vermillion MAY be toxic but I'm not sure. Handprint.com lists pigments and their traits in a lot of detail,if you can come up with the numbers involved. Pretty neat find! | ||
Polly Kiely |
I've aquired a bag of old w/n watercolors that where purchased in the 60's. Many are current colors but some have been discontinued. Wondering if anyone knows anything about them (permenence, health hazzards)? In order of how much I like/use them. 1. Carmine.. series 5- a nice deep cool red that I use instead of Aliz. Crimson 2. Aurora Yellow... series 3- warm yellow..much warmer than aureolin that I thought it might an old term for. 3. Indian Yellow, Genuine. love it. someone told it it was made from the urine of water buffaloes.???? 4. Scarlet Vermillion. series 5- nice color but is hard to re-wet. Surface becomes coated with varnish like surface when dried on the palette. 5. Cyan Blue...series 1- old name for Phalo blue, maybe 6. Alizarin Carmine.. haven't used it yet. 7. Rose Carthame... series 3. too weird for me. a orangey/pink that is VERY staining. Thanks, this is my first post. |
