| Author | Message | ||
  Linda |
You can find them online. | ||
Linda |
M. Graham paints are so excellent, when I become a bookwriter, I intend to represent their line. | ||
Zoe |
Thanks, Sid - reassuring to know that this lovely Graham's can go for a ride :) | ||
Sid |
I have been using M. Graham watercolors for some time now. If you squeeze them onto your field palette and run right out the door to paint, you will have a gooey mess in your paint pack! So, squeeze the paint and let the palette sit for a day or so. The paint will dry enough that it will not run when you're on the road. Try it! The M. Graham are worth the effort. | ||
Zoe |
Thanks, Sid. Although Wilcox, Paige and others have written books on colour theory, I still think I'll just play my own theories out. I've studied colour years ago but applying it to w/c is a different challenge. Nothing like the on-hands experience to have it sink into my untidy mind :) Pity my library isn't well stocked because I think I've already caused the bookshelf to begin to wobble. | ||
Sid |
Zoe: I have a book by Stephen Quiller called "Painter's Guide to Color" that I find to be excellent for understanding color theory. You might look for it too, It's available in paperback. Sid | ||
Zoe |
Robert, you are obviously sleeping better. You made me LAUGH really aloud (LOL) at the don't eat them, John. But sometimes I think I wouldn't mind eating some of the colours. And thanks for the postscript on the Wilcox. I'll check it tomorrow and see how it resonates on the 4th look. | ||
Robert |
John said "Good luck, they are yummy :) " John, Just becasue they are made with honey doesn't mean you should eat them. :) | ||
Robert |
"actually to one's understanding" Should have been "actually limiting to one's understanding" | ||
Robert |
A. I can't relate to warm and cool, personally. As I advanced in another thread it is actually to one's understanding to think in such terms. Is a green warmer or cooler color than a blue? If it's warmer than what about violet--either direction from blue is warmer? If green is cooler than blue that's also counter intuitive since green is yellower than blue --yellow being warmer. B. Pthalo green's pigment is pthalocyanine green PG-7. Winsor violet is dioxazine violet PV-23. C. Re. Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green by Michael Wilcox, I don't feel it's a question of getting it if you can't readily figure it out on your own. This is something yoiu really can't figure out on your own because it is basically counter intuitive and goes against all we have been taught in school about color. However, the book will make your thinking processes and perceptions about color so much more clear and accurate than it would be a shame to pass up such useful info. I have read some people's accounts about how Wilcox is off base. When I examine their arguments it is clear they either haven;t read Wilcox while claiming to have, of they have a fundamental misconception of what he is actually saying--perplexing since the book is so clear. | ||
Zoe |
John Smith, I've gotten the Graham's several places. Rochester Art Supply (really nice people, New York State) and locally. I think if you google Graham you'll come up with some others. Good luck, they are yummy :) | ||
Zoe |
Hi Robert - Great explanation. Now, my question is what were the Greens and Violets made of in pigment? I am absolutely not a theorist but an intuitive person/painter. I see the distinction between the warm and cool but it is because I sensitive to their variation not because I carefully studied their apparent difference. But I love the concept and the process of making the colours that I may have to get Wilcox book for that alone. | ||
John Smith |
Where can I find Graham watercolor? They're not listed in my catalogs | ||
Robert |
BTW--there are two pigments that go by the name of pthalo green--PG37--a yellow biased green and PG 7, a blue biased green (the conventional pthalo green). I am in my example below referring to the latter pigment. | ||
Robert |
Let me give you an illustration, not from Wilcox but from Zoltan Szabo. The illustration shows what is really happening and why convention three primary color theory is so much voodoo that has been passed along uncritically from generation to generation. Primariy colors are, in conventional three primary color theory, defined as colors that *cannot be mixed from other colors.* It is impossible create yellow, red, or blue from other colors. Now, if you have them, mix together pthalo green and dioxazine violet (winsor violet, carbazole violet, permanent blue violet). The result--blue!!! What happens is that both pigments, if their spectra were examined under a spectrophotometer, reflect, along with their greenness and violetness respectively, substantial amounts of blue. Pthalo green is a blue biased green and winsor violet is a blue biased violet ( in common terminilogy). Now green is green precisely because it absorbs other colors and reflects green. Violet is violet because it absorbs other colors and reflects violet. When pthalo green is mixed with dioxazine violet there is just enough violet to absorb the light reflected by the pthalo green. Also, there is just enough green in the pthalo to absorb the violet that is reflected by the violet. If this were the end of it no light would be reflected and the resultant color would be black. But each of the pigments reflects a great deal of blue in addition to the prevailing greenness and blueness. Recalling that the violet and green have been absorbed by each other creating black, what is left is the blue, free to be reflected (it was reflected all along and lended to the pthalo its BLUE greenness and oto the dioxazine its BLUe viloletness). The blue that results is a desaturated blue (indigo) as if blue had black added to it (the black of the green and violet absorbing each other completely). Thus it is a mistake to think that when you mix red and blue together you create a new color--violet. The blue cancels the red and the red cancels the blue and the violet that was there all along shines forth. If the colors had little violet to begin with, such as cadmium red light and cerulean blue, the violet resulting would be very muted. If the colors contained lots of violet, such as quinacridone rose and ultramarine blue, the resultant violet would be vivid. Thus if I have a green blue I know not much violet is attached. If I mix it with an orange red which also carries little violet I can predict with confidence that the result will be a very muted, desaturated violet. Note: Each individual pigment varies in what other colors it carries and one should become familiar with a limited palette well for this reason. | ||
Robert |
Yes-- Reading has cahnged my life as an artist. It not only makes perfect sense , it allows me to create color with 100% foreknowledge and accuracy. It's one of those things (color understanding) in which almost everyone has it totally wrond (underlying theory) and is blissfully unaware of the fact. | ||
Zoe |
Robert - Thank you for your response and clarification. I also wonder if you really think the Wilcox book is the definitive answer. I've looked at his book 3 times and each time walked away without it. I studied colour years ago, but whatever was clear to me then is less clear now with advances. Hope you sleep better tonight :) | ||
Robert |
I really have to start proofreading--apologies for the numerous typos in the preceeding post. | ||
Robert |
I'm quite sorry to have phrased my response the way I did. I got up in the middle of the night and responded (couldn't sleep). Didn't mean to imp;y anything negative. Here's what I mean: the three primaries do not exist in actuality. There are no pigments one can select that are pure yellow, blue or green**. Rather, every pigment leans toward one of its neighbors on the color wheel. To be able to mix any any color (as the flawed three primary color erroneoulsy suggests) you actualy need a split primary palette. To yellows, two reds, two bles. Thus it is impossible to state what three primaries are best. I stated the most transparent, but you actually need the folloiwing pigments; a green-yellow, an orange yellow, an orange red, a violet red, a violet blue and a green blue to have all of your primaries. **If there were actually a pure yellow and a pure blue, they would produce Black (not green ) when mixed. The yellow absorbs the blue light reflected by the blue pigment and the blue absorbs the yellow light reflected by the yellow pigment. When we mix "blue" and "yellow" the green is actually a separate color piggy backing (based upon spectrophotometric measurement of the pigment) upon the blue and yellow pigment. Some colors such as pthalo blue and lemon yellow have a lot of green piggybacking upon them and so when mixed more green emerges (one the yellow and blue cancel each other out). Contrastingly, when we mis cad yellow and ultramarine their spectrograhs reveal very little green piggybacking upon them and so the resuylt of mixing them is a muted green. See the following book for clarification: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967962870/qid=1094918148/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-3733942-8844869 | ||
Zoe |
Robert - Who are you addressing when you say, "you didn't know about primaries?" I certainly do and that is precisely why I asked how you derived the three colours you recommended. These would not have been my choices! | ||
Robert |
Actually, there in terms of color mixing there are not three primaries since no color is purely red, yellow or blue (ewach is biased toward one or the other of its color wheel neighbors). So, no my selection wss arbitrary (based on the probability that you were unaware of the non-existance of pure primaries and the fact that I was too lazy to "educate" you at the time--forgive me). Actually I would get a green biased yellow (Azo), an orange biased yellow (Gamboge ot cad yellow), an orange riased red (Cad, red light), a violet biased red (quinacridone rose), a violet biased blue (Ultramarine), and a green biased blue (pthalo). These will then cover all of your mixing primaries. (Avoid Aliz. Crimson--not lightfast) | ||
Zoe |
Robert - any particular reason for these 3 rather than others? | ||
Robert |
More-- Here's their color chart: http://www.mgraham.com/html/watercolor.htm Also check out the section on their website about the procedures they go through to make their paint. Interesting. | ||
Robert |
I'd suggest for their primaries -- azo light, quinacridone rose, and ultramarine. IMHO | ||
Zoe |
Vjo I think you'll be happy with the Graham's. I just got the Azo yellow and it is as clear as a bell. I will probably use up the other paints I have and try to stick with the MGs (where they have the colours). And yes, Jandrie - they stay moist but thus far this has been an advantage not a disadvantage for my indoor work. I noticed these last few days the WNs form a glutaneous film that I find less advantageous. But it is possible that the MG's moistness will be problematic for traveling - haven't tried this yet. | ||
VJo |
Glad to hear such positive comments about Graham paints. My local art supply store has just stocked them and I have been anxious to give them a try. With your encouragement I think I'll purchase 3 primaries and do some playing. | ||
Robert |
I didn;t say "why". The colors are very rich and concentrated. The fact that they stay moist means the brush gets really loaded. One disadvantage is that is you put them in a small paleteet and then walk around ( as in a travel kit) the paints don't dry and tend to flow around and make a mess. That said, the ultramarine blue is wonderfully brillaint and beautiful. The pthalos are so concentrated as to be radioactive. | ||
Robert |
I have tried almost every paint out there. M.Graham too. As soon as all of these other paints get used up--I am going to go back to M. Graham and use them exclusively. They do not have a color in the scarlet area however and so I will have to use Cadmium scarlet and venetian red in another brand. | ||
jandrle |
I didn't mean dry on the paper... I meant dry in the pans. Don't they stay moist in the pans? | ||
Zoe |
Just thought I'd start a new topic area for this question that came up in cutting paper. I am thus far "very" delighted with these paints. Yes they have honey but they do of course dry and last forever. The colours are wonderful and they seem to be excellent quality. I've heard nothing but good things about these from many w/c painters who have used them far longer than I have. |
