| Author | Message | ||
  Garydoc Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2006 |
Raleigh, Thanks for bringing this thread up. I just read it in full and there are some great ideas here. Sure do miss Robert! Gary | ||
Raliegh Junior Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2006 |
I felt there was such a wealth of information about green on this thread that I decided to bring it forward again. I certainly gleaned as much from it this second time around. There are also at least 2 other threads on greens since this was posted. | ||
Eugene |
Kukana, I found a very old post of yours under "Sample Pictures/Paintngs" with paintings you did in the Webb workshop. Also a lot of good info that will help me prepare for his workshop. Many thanks. | ||
Kukana |
I have never studied with Brommer but Carol, who used to post here often, loved his workshop. Anyone ever study with Ron Ranson? What about it? | ||
Eugene |
Kukana,, I'm also considering a Gerald Brommer workshop. Have you had any experience with him? Thanks for the info on Frank Webb-- can't wait! | ||
Kukana |
Eugene, you'll not regret the workshop. I promise. | ||
Zoe |
Robert - cheap spec's sitting near the machine might help - I can't be without my second pair of eyeglasses or I'd trip and fall :) | ||
Robert |
Robert - minor spelling problem- Yes--I apologize for the spelling thing that pervades the posts I make. I put my reading glasses down in the studio, go to the computer room on breaks and type... but I can't see the screen clearly and type by touch, which for me is highly inaccurate because I type real fast. The proofreading is difficult because it is so blurry. I'll have to start bringing my glasses in here with me (as I have done now). Sorry. | ||
Sid |
"Guiseppe Verde" = Joe's Green! That's excellent, Joanna. I'm suprised Joe didn't think of it! Robert - minor spelling problem--Benzimidazolone | ||
Eugene |
Kukana. I had already decided to take the Frank Webb workshop, but your post confirmed it! I've already read his books and have been helped by them. Also considering a workshop with Gerald Brommer. (landscape) I admire his work too, and hear he's a wonderful instructor. Any experience with him? Thanks for the info. | ||
jdaneman |
I just ran a more quicky tests on the AmJ. Gamboge Hue Thumbs down smeary Indian Red Thumbs down , too granular but a nice red--not too brown, so if you want a granular ind red, this may well be a good choice for you Sour Lemon, thumbs up clear, bright, cool yellow Halloween Orange, too opaque, but if you want semi opaque bright orange, it's good Quin Rose, Thumbs down pale, smeary, doesn't wash well. Skips, True and Joe's Green (Tempted to call it Guiseppe Verdi...) all thumbs up Cobalt Blue--eh, it's ok Sky Blue, semi opaque but washes down well. | ||
Robert |
FYI: Halloween Orange is Benzamidzaole Orange which it the pigment in Winsor Orange (W/N) Benzamidzaole Orange (DaVinci) Permanent Orange (Maimeriblu, Daniel Smith) | ||
jdaneman |
I will check with the Joe's folks on any update if DaVinci mfg's American Journey. It would explain the Halloween Orange, which is rather similar to a bright orange I used in cake form when I was working in Europe. (Winsor Newton was not available at our huge art store in Karlsruhe; they had Schminke, Old Holland, Rembrandt and some Holbein. And Lukas.) If I drove over to Strassbourg, they had Sennelier (quirky) and Lukas and Schminke. It was hard to get any other type of wc there. | ||
Eric |
Kukana and Eugene, Mr. Webb also has a video that Joe's sells. I don't own any of his books, but my library has them and I've checked them out and read and reread them many times. Outstanding books. | ||
Eric |
Thanks, Robert for the information. It looks like Maimeriblu's siennas have smaller particles. I won't use AJ's siennas with pthalo green. However, burnt sienna with larger granulations can be appealing when mixed with ultramarine blue. I've always liked how that mix looks when the particles separate. | ||
Kukana |
Eugene, you need to know first that I am a huge fan of Frank Webb. First of all I fell in love with his loose free style, then his books. By the time I took his workshop I was sold on his method. He is, in my opininon a master educator. He has the ability to teach in a style and method that leaves a lasting impression. Everyone in both workshops I've taken from him all felt the same as I did after the class and seemed to learn sooo much. I rarely paint that I don't hear his dry wit comical voice remininding me of one of his timelss tips. As a student and personal friend of Edgar Whitney, he is one of the few people left trained under who I consider to be the father of Modern Amercian Watercolours. I highly recommend his class and would encourage you to get one of his books from the library and read it before class to get the most out of your workshop. He has three. 1.Watercolour Energies (His First) 2. Strengthening Your Paintings Through Dynamic Composition (His Best..in his opinions as well) 3 Webb on Watercolour (The most readioy available) I learned more in his two classes and reading his books than I have in all my art education and experiences combined...literally!(Hows that for an endorsement??)He is gettingup there n age (75) and I don't know how much longer he will be on the road teaching...If you decide to take the opportunity...take plenty of notes..you'll regret it if you don't. | ||
Robert |
I was able to duplicate Eric's wasbes (with a separated out pthalo green) with a brand of burnt sienna and raw sienna that has coarse particles that strongly granulates. I then used Miameriblu brunt and raw siennas and they provided very smooth washes with zero showing of raw pthalo green. Very good siennsa! | ||
Eugene |
Kukana,, How was the Frank Webb workshop? He's giving one in Myrtle Beach next spring and I'm thinking of taking it. Give me your thoughts. | ||
Kukana |
I started using American Journey After talking to Frank Webb at a workshop. With the exception of a couple of colours, he uses them. I thought I give it a try and for the most part I a happy with them. They are plenty bright for my commericial lines and watered down for the etherial painting I do in my fine art lines I like them. I do not, however, paint anything realistic to where I am trying to match anything in real life, etc. I personally have a large range of what is acceptable in color for my work..basically if I like the color going on, it works for me. I do not like their Blues however. | ||
Robert |
I need to mention that DaVinci makes EWilcox's brand of paints (School fo Colour). Thus he has a reason not to attack his own brand!!!! However, the only reason this came up was I was trying to figure out why Eric was getting the chromatagraphic effect with pthalo green. My guess is the heavy loard of titanium dioxide filler in the yellows and /or the coarse grind to the sienna particles--Any thoughts on this issue? | ||
Robert |
As much as I love Wilcox's book on color theory and pal;ette design (Blue and Yellow Don;t Make Green), his Guide to the Best Watercolor Pigments is not nearly as accurate or as researcehed as handprint. All he does is use the published lightfastness ratings of the pigments and paint out a swatch for the books photos. He doesn;t even test things like we are discussing (opacity, granulation etc). Handprint does. In fact, handprint exists, I think, becasue Wilcox's book let so much to be desired in terms of detailed analysis and testing. So the fact thay they reach opposite conclusions isn't surprising since only handprint actually tests the paints. | ||
Robert |
My understaning is that AJ is repackaged DaVinci. Here's a relevant quote from handprint: " Made in the USA, DaVinci paints are sold under the DaVinci label ("Professional," reviewed here, and the student label "Scuola"), and as other brands, including the Michael Wilcox "School of Colour" and Cheap Joe's "American Journey" paints." | ||
jdaneman |
An aside on chalkiness of AM Journey. I ran a test yesterday on a selection from the recent formulations of American Journey, which I presume are not DaVinci. I used DaVinci in Europe, along with Schminke (what we had) and preferred Schminke by far. DaVinci is a student-grade with bulk filler, ie chalkiness. The Am Journey's I tried (gamboge tint, lemon hansa yellow, Joes, Skips, True Green, Coastal Fog, Coffee, Sky Blue, Cobalt Blue, Halloween and quin rose&violet) were mostly fine. The Sky Blue is granular and opaque, the quin rose and violet were odd indeed--cracked on me, but I am not a fan of the quins--I presume they are laked? Dye onto a carrier ppt? The opaque colors are fine for what they are for (screening paint spray for texture) and the Bemidazole (sp)Halloween Orange is pretty dense and almost opaque at full strength like cad oranges can be. The paints are better than Cotman student grade, but all are a bit granular. On the whole, I give them a B- to B. You get a lot for the buck, so good for big practice paintings, and the paint pigments are mixed, but mostly ok. If you like to try some big wild watercolors with a lot of paint and flinging it around, this could be a good deal compared to pricy Holbein or WN, which are great but in tiny tubes. | ||
Eric |
Robert, I haven't tried Maimeriblu yet, but I probably will. I notice the new holiday flyer from Cheap Joes has new Prismacolor watercolor paints. I'm sure somebody will provide feedback. I'm not very picky about paints, but I've been mostly happy with Amer. Journey and love the price. And I love those big tubes. Pschologically, it makes for a bold use of color when you're not worried about saving paint. Speaking of DaVinci, (it's been said on this board that they make AJ paints)virtually all their colors get high marks from the Wilcox Guide. It looks like Wilcox and Handprint have found the exact opposite results. | ||
Robert |
I found a statement in handprint that seems to back up my own experience with the chaulkiness fo Amnerican Journey (here he is talking about Da Vinci which is the American Journey not under the CJ house brand label): A brightener such as titanium dioxide is heavily relied on, as many pigments (ultramarine blue and a "cobalt turquoise" that looks more like cobalt teal blue) are lighter valued and brighter than other brands; when dried the paints present a subtle granular or gritty texture — even the quinacridones — or a chalky appearance. And, guess what, microscopic analysis of draw down samples shows one of the heaviest loads of fillers and/or brighteners of any paint reviewed here. Sedementation tests suggest that relatively coarse particle sizes have been chosen... | ||
Robert |
Another thing is that burnt sienna and raw sienna are by nature particulate and if it these pigments that are giving you trouble switch to Maimeriblu--theirs are finely ground and do not precipitate out chromatographically as readily as do many, including AJ. | ||
Robert |
I'm sorry, I didn't noticed that you used American Journey. I personally have had nothing but terrible experience with many of their yellows. Even the ones that are supposed to be transparent are not. They are filled with a chaulky substance that makes the paint highly particulate, opaque and the colors preciptiate out as you described. I've thrown all mine away (wouldn't wish them on friends) so I can't reduplicate the effect, but from my memory their yellows were filled with particulate chaulk. Why do you think they sell for so little. They are stuffed with filler. It's easy to see th=is if you run a comparison with w/n listed below. All of the above is one man's opinion based on one man's experience--not meant to be categorical. But I do think this may be the fundamental problem. | ||
Robert |
This chromatographic effect would be eliminated, I feel, not by substitution of pthalo, but but using transparent yellows--they would either be stains or of very find particles. Joanna suggested this. Here are some very good ones. Since W & N is so widely known, I'll use their names. Check handprint for equivalent pigments in other brands (maimeriblu and rembrandt make similar transparent yellows): Winsor Lemon Winsor Yellow Winsor Transparent Yellow Winsor Yellow Deep New Gamboge Indian yellow Quinacridone Gold I found that my landscape painting was made easier by dropping the traditionally used yellows. | ||
Eric |
Robert and Jdaneman, thank you for the responses. I'm using all American Journey paints and Arches 140# cold press. I always thoroughly wet both sides with a sponge and start painting on a wet surface. I just did some tests and, yes, the more granular paints like raw sienna and burnt sienna cause this effect with pthalo green. On pigment stops and the other keeps travelling along the paper. Alizarin crimson (quin.,PV19) and gamboge hue (PY 3,PY 42) do not separate. I just started using pthalo green, so now I'll know what to mix with it. Thank you. | ||
jdaneman |
Eric comments on the separation of phthalo green and yellow ochre. Eric, here is a long-winded answer but also a paint recommendation at the end of this post. Phthalo is essentially a dye--liquid, and yellow ochre and burnt sienna contain a precipitate or solid. Depending also on the carrier used to make the phthalo, you can have particulates that could settle. It all depends on the brand (see Hilary Page's Guide to Watercolor Paints. which I tell everyone to get for its huge amount of information.) I used to work in the lab and then I did chromatography instrumentation for years and years. I also painted for years but never CONNECTED the two!!! One thing I do know is that the PAPER sizing and even the paper alone can act as a sort of "thin layer chromatography sheet." What all this means is that the paper wicking the water along will act to separate out the pigments. If the phthalo is a dye and a small molecule that nasty mouthwash dye will travel faster, in solution, up the paper and the heavier particles like yellow ochre will settle. Burnt sienna also has particles. If you don't like the mouthwash look of the phthalo dye separating from particulate earth pigments, you can do some other choices: 1. For staining only, use two staining pigments like phthalo and a non-opaque yellow or orange. This won't separate as much--but it will stain or glaze. 2. For a solid, opaque green, choose a NON-STAINING green, such as Holbein's permanent green #3 which is the blue-shade color of phthalo green but opaque and has no PG7 which is the pigment of phthalo. Therefore, it would not be a staining green. You have to go through the guide and find the greens with no PG7. I actually didn't buy any tubes of phthalo blue or green until RECENTLY because I deplored the dye and strength of these strong shades. Now I just dab a tiny amount on the palette as mentioned earlier here and mix it into a color to tint. It's scary stuff, but manageable if you know the properties of each paint. | ||
Robert |
Also, the most important variable might be the paper. What paper are you using? Do you do anything to the surface before applying paint? ---Such as, soak it, scrub it, or pre wetbrush or sponge it? | ||
Robert |
I've never had this happen. If it's wet into wet it might be a chromatographic effect, that is, as the paints spread, each chemical stops at a characteristic distance allowing the next chemical to go on without it. cdreating a halo by the chemical that spreads the fartherest. This would only happen with certain mixes, my guess would be by mixing the pthalo green with opaques like cad. yellow. I'd like to know the brands you are using and the specific colors/pigments you are mixing so I can try and duplicate the effect. | ||
Eric |
A problem I'm having with pthalo green is when I paint "wet into wet". I always mix pthalo green with another color, such as a yellow or raw sienna or maybe burnt sienna, and it looks great when it initially is painted, but then the pigments separate a little and you see the harsh "mouthwash" color of the pthalo green. Does anyone else experience this? Maybe I should use a different green or just mix blues and yellows. | ||
Sid |
Robert--You're close! Add 10. | ||
Robert |
I meant to also add about Siud's comment: "You have the ability to produce all these green variations yourself without buying the individual tubes and you have complete control over the outcome."--that the more you learn about what mixes actually go into watercolor paints and the more you experiment with mixing the more you conclude that **less is more.** That is, with only a few paints, if correctly chosen, you can reproduce any color and do so with more harmony and nuance than with a big palette. This pthalo issue is a case in point. | ||
Robert |
Sid--You must be at least 56 (my age) because you'd have to be to recall the Brylcreme commercials. | ||
Sid |
Good discussion, Robert. The fact that Pthalo Green is in most of the pre-mixed greens on the market (Sap, Hookers, Permanent Green, etc) should be a clue as to how valuable Pthalo is on your palette. You have the ability to produce all these green variations yourself without buying the individual tubes and you have complete control over the outcome. I live in Montana, so I need a lot of deep, rich greens, generally muted, to paint the many fir, pine, and spruces of the western mountains. I am quickly finding that I can mix them all using Pthalo. It is a scarey color I'll admit. It really fits the old saying, "a little dab will do yah!" That's why Tony Van Hassselt recommends dabbing the Pthalo first on a separate spot on the palette, then transferring a bit of that spot to your Burnt Sienna, Raw Sienna, etc. Sid | ||
Robert |
Well now that people are starting to post their names I feel I am in real person to person conversations rather than talking to others as if to strangers in the bathroom stalls next to me. So thanks for this. I noticed a discussion of Pthalo Green Below and thought I'd bring it front and center. It seems many do not use pthalo green becasue it is unnatural. Pthalo green--the oiriginal blue shade--is pigment PG7 or the yellow shade PG36--and if you look at the tubes of green you buy you'll notice it is the main component in almost every green. PG36 plus yellow ochre or quin gold makes sap gfreen. PG7 plus hansa yellow makes permanent green. Less yellow you get Hooker's green. etc. The key, as someone pointed out is to use a touch of Pthal green. Here are 2 tips. Let the pthalo thoroughly dry so that the brush only picks up a surface film. Grumbacher's is good for this becasue it drys thoroughly but rewets just right. M. Graham is th hardest to handle pthalo becasue it stays moist and sticky and you always get more on your brush than you need. One thing I discovered to make great greens is to use Cotman Intense green which is just PG 36 with lots of binder so it is managable. Van Gogh Viridian is PG7 diluted with a bunch of binder. These two "student" grades are the same pigment just less of it, making it much easier to handle. I would recommend using either of these as the starting point for mixing greens. However, they are not dark enough to make blacks. If you use pthal green with a blue biased red such as aliz or quin. magenta you geen a transparent dark which is the staple dark of many pros. For this you need a dense artist quality pthalo. I've found Joe's Green of American Journey to be the most economical artist quality pthalo, though I prefer the handling qualities of grumbacher finest the most. |
