| Author | Message | ||
  Robert |
My favorite quinacridone's (PV19) are, strangely enough, the cheapest. They are Van Gogh Permanent Red Violet and Van Gogh Quinacridone Rose. These are as far as I can tell in every way identical to their more expensive artist line (rembrandt) counterparts. These two are just wonderful additions to a palette. | ||
jdaneman |
Thanks for the discussion on PR19, which is a troublesome pigment for me. I got the Am Journey Quin Rose which I found made a nice pink stain but is heavy and not easily manipulated in full strength, while the Daniel Smith Quin Coral (a warm coral version--quite orangey in comparison) manipulates well in washes and is very bright. I wonder, has anyone compared Daniel Smith Quin Rose to their Quin Coral and how do they stack up as to working up? Because I was pretty unhappy with the Am Journey version, but I have to say in fairness, I have a hard time finding a Quin Rose I like from any supplier. | ||
Zoe |
Hi Deb - just caught the reference to EBSQ. I know personally several artists that are members but haven't heard one way or another whether it's improved their sales. It certainly has improved their public personae. You often see "member of..." now on ebay listings. I did subscribe to their pages earlier this year, but my focus is so watercolour driven (in an effort to improve) my reading lists has dimmed unless it is directly related to what I am concentrating on right now. | ||
deb |
Hi Robert....hoping you'd start untangling the PV 19 mystery for me. Thanks for the info from handprint - I use that site often - an unmatched reference tool. I do not subscribe to traditional color theory dogma, (assuming CIELAB a-b+ ), and am an information junkie (like you?) I have this crazy need to know why?why?why?...esp. when I choose pigments for a painting. (so I'll have a greater chance of success...maybe?) This need to know has gotten worse since I started teaching beginning watercolor to adults in my community. (Wish I'd taken organic chemistry in college - wasn't required for a communication, non-journalism major like myself). I'd be very interested to find out what pigments are on the palettes of the artists in this group. By the way, EBSQ is a group of on-line self representing artists, run by artists. An early part of ebay auctions, EBSQ is an abbreviated acronym for e-basquiat (the artists who started EBSQ all admired artist Jean-Michel Basquiat). I'm going to start subscribing to find out if it would be a helpful on line representative. Thanks again for the welcome and the info...appreciate very much. Here's the site for more info. http://www.ebsqart.com/FAQ_cmd_FAQSection. Not sure I'm inserting as a link... | ||
Robert |
Deb: Again--welcome. What is ESBQ? | ||
Robert |
Sorry for the long post--I should have given you the link instead. My error. http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html | ||
Robert |
Welcome Deb re: "(Still have questions about the chemistry of PV19" Here's a quote from Handprint.com: PV19 gamma quinacridone (1958) permanent rose Winsor & Newton 075 4 3 49 0 2 3 19 -16 7,8 PV19 permanent rose Rowney Artists 537 3 2 47 0 3 1 19 -17 6,7 PV19 quinacridone rose Daniel Smith 076 3 3 47 0 4 3 12 -7 7,8 PV19 quinacridone rose Rembrandt 366 3 3 50 0 4 3 15 -20 7,8 PV19 permanent rose (quinacridone) DaVinci 182 2 3 46 1 3 2 12 -9 7,8 PV19 royal purple lake Old Holland 184 3 2 52 0 3 2 16 -15 7,7 PV19 primary red - magenta MaimeriBlu 256 3 3 45 0 2 4 16 -9 8,8 PV19 quinacridone rose M. Graham 156 4 4 55 1 2 1 24 -17 8,8 PV19 quinacridone red Daniel Smith 073 2 4 54 0 4 1 21 -12 8,8 PV19 rose lake MaimeriBlu 182 2 4 52 0 3 4 25 -18 7,8 PV19 red rose deep (quinacridone) DaVinci 276 3 4 57 1 3 3 26 -23 7,8 PV19 alizarin crimson (quinacridone) DaVinci 202 2 4 59 1 2 2 27 -17 7,8 PV19 carmine (quinacridone) DaVinci 225 3 4 63 2 3 2 25 -13 7,8 PV19 ruby red Schmincke 351 3 2 53 0 4 3 23 -14 8,8 PV19+PY97 gamma quinacridone + arylide yellow FGL rose dore Winsor & Newton 089 3 3 38 0 4 4 28 -6 5,5 Quinacridone rose PV19 (gamma quinacridone) is a lightfast, semitransparent, staining, moderately dark valued, moderately intense rose pigment, available from about 20 manufacturers worldwide, primarily for high grade paints and plastics. The ASTM (1999) rates its lightfastness in watercolors as "excellent" (I), but I found small shifts in hue and value that put some brands in "very good" (II). In watercolors, the red and rose shades of PV19 undergo a small drying shift, losing slightly more than 10% saturation with almost no lightening. It's the chemical twin to quinacridone violet (beta quinacridone, PV19), which is bluer, darker, and less intense. (Hilary Page's quirk of adding "R" or "B" to the color index name has no sanction from either the Colour Index International or the manufacturers.) — The pigment used in watercolor paints is quite variable across manufacturers, but essentially clusters into two hues: * ROSE. This shade has an average hue angle of 16 and a value range of 48. Winsor & Newton permanent rose stands out as the most saturated, strongest tinting and one of the warmest among the rose paints available. As far as I can tell, only Winsor & Newton offers this specific manufacture of PV19; it mixes very bright warm colors and violets, and is extremely valuable as a "cool" red in a limited palette. The Daniel Smith quinacridone rose has the bluest hue but shows a noticeably lower masstone chroma. The Rowney Artists quinacridone rose and MaimeriBlu primary red-magenta are less concentrated, weaker in mixtures and lighter valued. The other rose paints are similar to each other, darker valued and slightly warmer in hue. Confusingly, MaimeriBlu primary red-magenta is actually the rose hue, apparently less concentrated than the Daniel Smith. * RED. This shade has an average hue angle of 27 and a value range of 55 (it's warmer and darker than the "rose" shade). There are fewer paints available in this hue, but because this is warmer than the rose hue, it is an interesting choice as a "cool" red in a limited or split "primary" palette. M. Graham quinacridone rose is the most intense and strongest mixing of the red shades, and relatively less active in wet applications. Both Maimeri and Daniel Smith offer the "red" hue (labeled "rose lake" by Maimeri) with similar color attributes to anthraquinoid red (PR177) but better lightfastness. Finally, the Winsor & Newton rose dore, a mixture of rose with yellow, is a moderately lightfast imitation of a fugitive historical pigment, often used in floral paintings. All brands shift significantly toward blue in undertone. The milling and vehicle formulation affect the handling characteristics of the paint, which are quite different across manufacturers. — One of the most versatile and reliable crimson/rose pigments. Some manufacturers offer it as the artist's primary magenta. Because it is a little warmer than a true magenta, quinacridone rose creates wonderfully clear, bright mixtures across the red to yellow span of a color wheel. Its violets are not as bright as those mixed from quinacridone magenta (PR122), but I find this creates a more natural color when the mixtures are used for shadows. Gamma PV19 works especially well in florals and, with raw sienna and cobalt blue, in mixtures for healthy pink flesh tones. Again, the variations in lightfastness ratings across manufacturers is a signal that you should evaluate this pigment with lightfastness tests of your own. See also the section on quinacridone pigments. PV19 beta quinacridone (1958) quinacridone violet M. Graham 158 4 4 63 0 2 2 3 -18 8,8 PV19 quinacridone violet Daniel Smith 089 2 4 65 0 2 3 7 -24 8,8 PV19 permanent magenta Winsor & Newton 073 3 4 61 0 3 2 1 -18 8,8 PV19 permanent magenta Rowney Artists 409 3 3 60 0 2 4 1 -20 8,8 PV19 permanent red violet Rembrandt 567 3 4 60 0 3 0 6 -12 8,8 PV19 quinacridone violet Utrecht 004 3 3 58 0 2 0 356 -15 8,8 Quinacridone violet PV19 (beta quinacridone) is a very lightfast, semitransparent, heavily staining, very dark valued, moderately dull magenta pigment that shifts toward blue in undertone. Unrated by the ASTM, my own and nearly all manufacturer or independent tests indicate it has "excellent" (I) lightfastness. Note that it has the same color index name as quinacridone rose (PV19), but is a very different hue and value. (Hilary Page's quirk of adding "R" or "B" to the color index name has no sanction from either the Colour Index or the manufacturers.) In watercolors, the violet shades of PV19 undergo a moderately large drying shift, lightening by 15% and losing over 20% of chroma. The measured hue is nearly identical to quinacridone magenta (PR122) but because of its darker value and lower chroma it appears visibly bluer, especially in tints. (This dependence of apparent hue on value and/or chroma is a peculiar quirk of points 5 and 6 of the color wheel.) It is the parent of the red quinacridone pigments, a superb mixing color, and is now offered by many watercolor manufacturers. — This pigment is fairly consistent across paint brands, and most paints that contain it are also active in wet applications (blossoming and diffusion). M. Graham quinacridone violet, Winsor & Newton permanent violet and Rowney Artists permanent magenta seem to use the same pigment source, as all are similar in hue and have the most intense color (chroma of 45); all make a large shift toward blue in undertone (a lyrical characteristic I really like). The Daniel Smith quinacridone violet is darker valued (which cause a slight hue shift toward red), and bronzes slightly when applied full strength. Rembrandt permanent red violet is also reddish and intense, and the Utrecht quinacridone violet, the lightest paint of all, bronzes in full strength and is bluer and less saturated than the other brands, almost appearing to be maroon. — PV19 is often the pigment used to anchor the "magenta" side of warm colors in a palette: the question is, which hue to use? The rose or red shades of PV19 are more extraverted, producing bright warm mixtures, bright tints, and lighter valued violet mixtures with blue paints. The violet shade of PV19 ,a lovely dark, rich color in the best paints, is more evocative: the dark value and "blue violet" reflectance mixes unusual, complex browns with orange or yellow paints, moody reds and oranges with orange or red paints, and very subdued, atmospheric violets and blues with dark blues such as phthalocyanine blue (PB15) or ultramarine blue (PB29); it also mixes shimmering violet grays when mixed with blue green colors such as cobalt teal blue (PG50) or cobalt turquoise (PB36). See also the section on quinacridone pigments. | ||
Deb |
Greetings to all! I'm new to posting, but have enjoyed and learned and referred back many times to this site. Your intelligent answers to questions and comments about a wide variety of watercolor issues and topics are impressive. Particularly liked the phthalo green discussion...went through that myself. (Still have questions about the chemistry of PV19, and if EBSQ is good/bad, re: on-line rep,ebay sales.) I decided to get involved and speak person to person....well.... just because....maybe you might welcome a new voice? After all, if two heads are better than one, wouldn't 1501 be better than 10? Plus, you all sound interesting, talented, and just really cool... |
