| Author | Message | ||
  buffalo bill tarr |
 hoping this works...this is for you,sarah,with love,bill | ||
jdaneman |
I'm gonna try this ONE more time--a loose version of a sunflower.  | ||
jdaneman |
Yeah the market is my fave, but I don't like some things that happened during the painting--things that don't make sense in lost edges for example. There is little structure as I just snapped a shot of a market while dashing in and out of the Fiat, then painted it later when I got back to Germany. Not ideal. I have two florals that are "better" and a lot of the tighter versions of scenes in India not on that page. I wish I could captue that loose feeling more often, but it's a struggle. | ||
George |
Joanna, your painting Market, Bombay India, is (in my opinion) the best on the page. It illustrates my point to Robert, that “looseness” is an imperfect term. The painting is very “loose”, but it lacks a “tightness” of structure. Please don’t be offended by my saying this. I assume your interest is the same as mine – to reach a better understanding of art, our own as well as others. | ||
jdaneman |
George, thanks for doing that--glad to find it's not just my incompetence here! Meanwhile, go look at the "loose" watercolors on my site--I posted them a while ago for family members. JoannasPaintings | ||
George |
Robert,I think we don’t see Traditional watercolors because of the reasons that I listed below. But, you make a good point; it’s more interesting to focus on what it requires to achieve mastery. First, (a good place to begin) I’ll suggest that the term “loose” is not the proper term to use if we really want to understand why some artist’s “strokes seem to be executed in a whirlwind of inspiration with all just falling into place with not one stroke too many”. The term “loose” suggests a loosening of structure. A great watercolor is highly structured, down to every brushstroke. I believe that a “tight” control over the brush is required. Yet, the resulting effort has the appearance of a freedom that suggests “looseness”. Sounds “Zen” doesn’t it? | ||
George |
Jdaneman, I tryed to post a painting to see if I could find the problem. It didn't work for me either. | ||
George |
Jdaneman, I’ll try to post a painting and see if I can find the problem that you are having with getting your painting attached (assuming it works for me). C:\Documents and Settings\Techuser\My Documents\My Pictures\rock.jpg | ||
jdaneman |
George, that is indeed exactly the charm of watercolor--wild strokes that fall into place--well put. JS Sargent is my epitome of this; if you look at "Bathers", the water is a series of wild strokes, but it clearly indicates little ripples on a very clear body of shallow water. I posted a link to my page in a post below; I can't figure out why I get the error message when I try to link a pic. | ||
Robert |
George-- It's just an impression based upon the offerings in shows and magazines etc. etc. I can't read the minds of other atrists or galleries or magazines or shows etc. I only know that I hunger to see more well done watercolors in the traditional loose style but everywhere I turn I seem to see highly polished (my term overworked was not accurate since that is always a negative regardless of sytle), refined works dominating, but certainly not exclusively. However, it won't be fruitful for either one of us to focus on my impressions as opposed to yours re. the relative presence in the world of 2004 of loose watercolors. What might be of more interest is to define what it requires to achieve mastery. There is something about a successful loose painting--it's as if the strokes were executed in a whirlwind of inspiration and the all just fall into place with not one stroke too many. I find myself wanting to call such paintings "performances." | ||
jdaneman |
I give up--this is ridiculous. Can't even email via the site. my painting site Half the pics are drawn, half are NOT and you can clearly tell which ones are on this page. | ||
jdaneman |
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jdaneman |
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George |
Jdaneman, keep trying, you have me really curious as to what the painting looks like. | ||
George |
Robert, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am still unsure about one aspect of the “true source” of your concern. What evidence suggests to you that “such art is not as highly or universally valued"? | ||
jdaneman |
I do these types of paintings with NO pencil sketching, just brush to paper, in order to retain the loose feel. I find if I sketch first, I try to paint too much detail. | ||
Kukana |
Robert, I painted the entire piece with a 1 inch flat Robert Simmions sky flow brush (I didn't use a traditional sumi brush) I simply loaded the brush with a very yellowy green then dipped one side into a bluish green and the other into a green with quite a bit of sienna in it. The brush was quite wet and sloppy. Then I just held the brush at the very tippy end and pushed/pulled and twisted as I drug it accross the paper. The piece was done on Yupo which helped the 'flow' of it all. The whole painting took me 1 hour and 10 minutes to complete. 5 minutes to paint the flowers..and hour for them to dry... and then 5 minutes to paint the leaves! The original was a 1/2 sheet and was the first piece sold at the first show I took it too. | ||
Robert |
Hi George-- Nice analysis. However, when you say, "The reason that you seem 'frustrated' is because you are confusing craft with content," I don't think I have a personal confusion along these lines. I am quite aware of what such mastery entails. There may be, as you point out, a dearth of artists producing such art rather than judges ignoring it. That sounds reasonable. However, I do feel that such art is not as highly or universally "valued" and that is the actual, true source of my concern, not a confused understanding of what masterful art of this ilk is, as you concluded. | ||
Robert |
Wow Kukana--How doid you get your single sumi brushstrokes for the leaves and petals to have so many accurate color nuances in one sweep? | ||
George |
Robert,I don’t think overworked paintings are rewarded at the expense of the truly “watercoloresque performances”. The problem is that the “watercoloresque performances” are not common (easily found). As I said earlier; “photo real art is easier to create than expressive, loose, free, and simple (as in elegant) art.” Therefore, photo real watercolor is more common. In other words, if a judge at a watercolor show has dozens of good, to really good, photo real paintings and a few fair, to average, “watercoloresque” paintings, he/she will give the awards to the more finely crafted paintings. The reason that you seem “frustrated” is because you are confusing craft with content. Learning the “craft” of watercolor is relatively easy, but the creative ability to make every brush stroke fully expressive and the total of brush strokes communicative of some deeper emotion (mood, sense, affection) requires genius and is very rare. This is more than skill. | ||
Kukana |
Love the Edgar Whitney book. I quote it often.! Loose does have many definitions. I also enjoy the direct brush, sumi style although I dont do a lot of it. Here's one I did the other day however.  | ||
Robert |
What a perfect quote in this context. Why use the relatively spontaneous medium of watercolor when other media serve the purpose better. Actually, anyone is free to do anything one wants. I guess the real question is, why is the overworking of a painting rewarded at the expense of the truly watercoloresque performances. This I find really frustrating. I attended a woprkshop given by a loose painter. Many -- the majority of the artists-- at least a dozen with advanced degrees in art and defining themselves as professionals--produced incredibly shoddy work in almost all aspects. Many looked like they were produced by people still struggling to learn the basics of painting (in the worst sense of beginner). It's not that I am being snobbish, just pointing out that loose brush work is a mental skill as well as a physical and it must be practiced. These same artists excell at the 000 brush photorealistic or the pour, splash and spray abstract. | ||
Eric |
Here's what the late Edgar Whitney says in his book , Complete Guide to Watercolor Painting, page 12 under "Watercolor's Nature": "The nature and essence of watercolor is its spontaneity, the swift seizure of a single impression, not the careful building up of design and inclusion of carefully defined detail. That is oil, gouache, or casein painting. Taste is questionable when there is a too arbitrary extension of the natural province of the medium." | ||
George |
I believe more artists use airbrush than you might think (it fits the photo realistic style). Some of the paintings I’ve seen in national watercolor shows have an airbrush look (at least in some areas of the painting). I suspect these artists use a combination of tools. This issue of looseness is interesting. I believe that the explosion of photo realism in watercolor has come about because of two factors. First, today’s artists have grown up with photographic mass media (TV, print and movie). Second; photo real art is easier to create than expressive, loose, free, and simple (as in elegant) art. | ||
Robert |
You know--I am curious why more watercolor artists, wanting a perfect, slick look, don't go into airbrush. Airbrush would make things easier for them. No pesky brushmarks to hide. | ||
jdaneman |
sigh still not getting this right... sorry /image {my picture? please} | ||
jdaneman |
/image | ||
jdaneman |
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jdaneman |
Hi! That's a lovely work. I like to paint loose but it fights with "what I see." I have to do a lot of practice to keep that freedom. | ||
Eric |
I really like that painting, Kukana. That's a painting that one could gaze at for a long time. Lots of soft textures, kind of a mysterious feel to it. Many, maybe most non-artists seem to think that the more realistic, the better the painting. I prefer the looser style, like it's painted as casually as one might sign their own name. That is, as long as there's good shapes, a good value pattern, etc. Overworked and tight makes me uncomfortable. I mentioned John Pike in a previous post. His paintings at first glance appear kind of realistic but they are anything but tight, although he's not as loose as the painters Robert mentioned. In my own paintings I strive to make it look somewhat real yet effortless and casual and spontaneous. Using a big brush goes a long way in the battle against tightness. | ||
Robert |
I think a more useful thread might be to describe what style you prefer and or what style you display or hold ideal. Kakuna's is certainly different from mine and yours would be jsut as different from ours. | ||
Robert |
Kakuna--though representing the opposite end of the spectrum of what I would call loose painting, this painting is stunning. I love it. I in fact love all sorts of styles. But it is loose (like zen brushwork), painterly, almost primitive stuff that reaches deep into my artist's psyche. Nevertheless, again, I really like this work. Thanks for posting it. | ||
Kukana |
When I am teaching and have a student that just can't seem to loosen up, I encoourage them to do their entire sketch holding the 'eraser end' of the pencil and then likewise painting holding only the end of a large flat brush. The students usually love the results. When i first married, my husband would glance at my work and judge each piece by how realistic each one looked. One day he was looking at a piece and exclaimed "Those don't look real" In my frustration i looked at him cross eyed and exclaimed..."They;re not, its paint, paper and my imagaination." Needless to say I am not a realist.  | ||
Eugene |
Robert, I too like loose spontaneous watercolors with confident brushwork. But,alas, I think the general public thinks otherwise. And, to a certain extent , the art world in general. Just look at te national watercolor shows-- they are dominated by polished photo realistic techniques and abstracts. Not many of the oldfashioned traditional watercolors are selected. In fact, I attend a lot of w/c workshops, and many of the younger artists do not even know how to do a wash. And I don't mean laundry. Sad but true. | ||
Robert |
When I look at watercolor instruction books I am always amazed that I like the preliminary loose color sketches far better than the finished products. I value watercolor painting in which I can see big, confident unmolested brush work. And I am curious, does the general non-artist public prefer this, or the highly worked stuff, in your opinion. Some of my favorites painters are Mel Stabin, Jerry McClish, Dominic DiStefano, plus the late Claude Croney and the late David Millard--all loose painters. |
