| Author | Message | ||
  drollere |
a clarification and comment. my main issue with the grumbacher line had to do with the selection of "colors". for example, the cadmium yellows and bluish red quinacridones are too similar, and there is useless duplication in the dark (blackish) and green paints. it's not accurate to attribute that to "very old stock he had purchased at a store that had let it sit on shelves for years." (one thought, though: if it had been sitting around for years, how good could the stuff be?) as for the paint comparisons: the phthalos in particular can be very deceptive, because (1) the pigment can produce a very large hue range, with the "red" hues usually darker valued than the "green" hues, (2) all the phthalos shift hue toward green, sometimes dramatically, as the paint is diluted, and (3) some manufacturers use more pigment in their paints than others, which means the dilution that produces the optimal color will be different. every painter has probably had the experience of brushing out a new paint (usually in masstone), falling in love with the color, then discovering, when the paint is used in tints or in mixtures, that, hey, it don't look so good. it's also a problem that the color can be degraded by "transparent" ingredients added to the paint to dilute the incredibly intense phthalo pigment. a suggestion: brush out samples of the color at different dilutions, for example 1:1 (paint:water), 1:2, 1:4, 1:8 and 1:16. this gives you a better feel for the color range and a better basis for comparison. good phthalos should really brighten and shimmer as they are diluted, rather than go "pastel" on you. i agree with jdaneman's comments about scheisse-schmincke. i just finished another round of exhaustive paint lightfastness tests (my last, i've decided), and i was aghast at some of the lightfastness problems that turned up. isn't the story that they shot their old paint chemists and vowed never to fade again? | ||
Robert |
Sorry, I posted a dead link--try this for grumbacher discussion: http://www.sanfordcorp.com/sanford/consumer/grumbacher/wwwboard/messageboard.jhtml | ||
Robert |
If they cancelled Prismacolor why is Cheap Joe's selling it: http://www.cheapjoes.com/catalog/products.asp?id=3554&pid=209&ppid=24 As I posted...I contacted Macia Babbler of Grumbacher--customer relations--and she said it was definately being discontinued Dec 31. Here's the grumbacher discussion link http://www.sanfordcorp.com/sanford/consumer/grumbacher/wwwboard/messageboard.jhtml-- Scroll down to early noivemeber and read the thread "Is it ture?" begun by Lefty. You could post a question "Is it still true?" and they will answer and e-mail you, but in light of the fact that Prismacolor is already for sale....one also has to keep in mind that grumbacher finest does/did not sell well. Prismacolor might be better--who knows--someone buy some and report on it! | ||
jdaneman |
Curiouser and Curiouser: I spoke to "Rickie" of a southern-based art firm not in NC (name changed and site unnamed to protect the fact CJ supports this site!) He is the buyer for watercolor. Says "Grumbacher heard the hue and cry over the Prismacolor changes and is reconsidering." "Really?" I questioned him. "Companies so rarely go back on decisions." "They've canceled the planned name change." he told me. Now, it remains to be seen if the order for paint from Grumbacher he placed will, indeed be filled in 2 weeks as he claims it will be. He also thought the paint from Prismacolor would indeed be a relabeled, previous formulation from Grumbacher and I also questioned him on this. So..keep tuned. The mystery is still unfolding. | ||
Suzy |
ABout Indian Yellow..Only one amazing choice that I can't live without when it comes to this color...Its ina class of its own and warrants amyone trying it.....MameriBlu | ||
Robert |
Interestingl Grumbacher Thalo Blue is a totally different pigment than the other brands--PB 15:6. I looked this up and traced it to the manufacturer and it is several times more expensive than the others becasue it goes through servral more refining steps. But what a brilliant blue green results. I also have had need for a much different pthalo bluw--one that is more like a prussian blue--redder, one that mixes more natural greens with my palette. After trying about everything, I have found that Van Gogh pthaol blue is a perfect hue for my palette. Re. Maimeriblu blues, they are nothing special--they are nice and useful, but they don't stand out as supurb the way the Grumbacher's do. I do fing the M/Graham Ultramarine to be very close to the Grumbacher. The academy Ultramarine is coarsely ground and fgranulates wildly but it is fun to use. The academy pthalo blue is thesame pigment as the Finest but less concentrated. The Academy pthalo green is similar in color to the finest but if the glob og paint dries and is reconsitiuted on the brush, it leaves a bunch of flakes that find themselves on your painting. Yuk. Maimeriblue Cupric Green Deep is my favorite pthalo green (PG7) simply because it seems a bit less staining. I know handprint.com had made the success of M> Graham. People read his praises of it and ask for it. I wonder if the reverse happened with Grumbacher Finest. He disliked it so much he refused to include it in his site and said so. However, his comments about his experiences with grumbacher finest where obviously based on very old stock he had purchased at a store that had let it sit on shelves for oears. That's the only way he could have esperienced the results he described. | ||
jdaneman |
Robert, I remember you saying that; what I wonder is if the Grumbacher Co. would SELL the rights to the formulae back the Graham. Usually, formulations are secret and one signs a non-disclosure, non-compete, well, some kind of legal document that protects the intellectual property of a firm--the paint formula certainly being intellectual property in this case. What annoys me is that there are some excellent technologies around (not just paint) and with Progress (or Cheapness) things are discontinued at quite a fast rate these days. The knowledge isn't "lost" but it is disused and evenually it ends up in a dustheap and ultimately is lost. I took a look at my swatches tonight (not painting today--eh, sometimes we have to clean,right?) and the blues are quite special. Now I haven't gone and bought Maimeri or Academy, but I was annoyed again because these are really special blues. Clearly, the phthalo is a greenish one, the grinding is very fine, and some kind of dispersing agent or surfactant is used along with the usual binders to make this very smooth in a wash. It spreads with little granularity and with a very excellent, bright sort of middle grade wash. Same for the Ult blue, though again, I think I could use AJ's cobalt which looks rather similar. Strange as cob. blue and ult. blue are two different pigments, usually. Well of course real Ultramarine was lapis lazuli, ground and is damaged by acids, but sodium aluminum sulfosilicate is PB29--chemically similar if not the same as the mineral, and Cobalt is PB 28, cobalt aluminium oxide--two different compounds. Phthalo from M. Graham, Davinci, WN, Lukas, Blockx and Maimeri is PB15:3 beta copper phthalocyanine while other manufacturers use the alpha copper phthalocyanine which is redder or even mixes (good old Daniel Smith.) I got a copy of Kovansec's "Boringest Painting Video Ever" or "Watching Paint Dry"--ie the Juicy Wash and have to learn what he means about where the pigments sit. But clearly the Grum. blues are sitting where he likes, making that luminosity. I tried watching that video while on the treadmill and nearly fell off from slumber. A lot of this seems to be taste--the DS paints have a "painterly" granularity or smeariness when swatched--I actually like that, but sometimes I want big swatches of smoooooooth for various reasons. | ||
Robert |
You can read here about the M. Graham / Grumbacher connection: http://www.wetpaintart.com/Newsletter%20Archive/Back%20to%20School%2000/M%20Graham%20and%20Co.htm | ||
Robert |
M. Graham is the person responsible for the Grumbacher formulations! | ||
jdaneman |
Thanks for the advice on the Academy ult. Perhaps someone at Grumbacher will have the foresight to sell the formulations to M. Graham or a willing party. Shame to lose knowledge in this way. | ||
Robert |
The grumbacher person told me it is a different line entirely, not a repackaging of the Finest line. I still have several tubes of the ultramarine but I probably sell them cheaply to someone & go on to the replacement now so I can go ahead and get used to it. I'm going to use the academy ultramarine which granulates better than any other (well it's similar to Holbein Ultramarine deep) by is sooo cheap, plus the Maimeriblu Cobalt Blue Light which is absolutely wonderful--as are all of their paints. | ||
jdaneman |
Maybe (ha) Prismacolor will reproduce that ultramarine. I got only one tube of it and it is indeed special. It is almost a cobalt blue--I found I could get a slightly similar but not so good result with AJ cobalt. | ||
jdaneman |
Interesting about the Holbein "permanent" yellow. I don't care for their greens: the Japanese esthetic on green escapes me entirely--even Fujifilm is tuned to some odd viridian when developed. Now, I've worked in Japan and it DOES have odd light--very red sometimes due to the high moisture content in the atmosphere, and it's sort of subtropical in places but mountainous in others, and you get this blue haze all over everything. Japanese colors are always off chromatically; red is coral, blue is peacock,green is that Midori color--yellow-green or else it's a blue-green viridian and so forth. This was, according to a friend, due to the natural dyes used in kimono and so not never pure "red-yellow-blue" as we see them in the spectrum or close to it as in some paints. Their antique color line, I am curious to see, as I imagine it tries to reproduce the colors you see in the old paintings there. Schmincke-Horadam, a watercolor line from Germany, nearly the only one you can find there, is liked by Hilary Page but my swatch sheet is faded shockingly after five years. We also noted that German paint, all paint--auto, house, you name it, is very very odd stuff. Either they have environmental restrictions on some of the ingredients or they are cheaping out. We used to chant over and over "German paint is Sh--se" when we had to paint something over there. | ||
Robert |
J---- The grumbacher finest ultramarine is so special that I don't really have a clue as to how to replace the basic blue in my palette. I suppose I'll start using another ultramarine (maybe Grumbacher academy which is totally diffent in hue--much redder and caorsely ground) and Maimeriblu Cobalt Blue Light (a great cobalt) that seems the only way to get the diversity of applications of the Ultramarine from G. Finest. | ||
Robert |
I think Maimeriblu's raw and burnt siennas are the best. | ||
Robert |
The problem I have with Holbein is the fugitive character of many if their pigments including, of all things, permanent yellow and all of the convienance greens mixed with it! | ||
jdaneman |
I've been wanting to try Maimeri Blu, stupidly didn't include any on my last paint order I have Hansa Yellow and Bemz. Orange from AJ--maybe I could try mixing some to look like an Indian Yellow I have from WN that is nearly finished. I actually try to stick to only a few brands of paint so I dont' get confused when I reorder. So far, I've left off using WN (the price, the small tube, the feeling the quality has gone off in recent years--maybe just a feeling and not reality.) I like some of the DS and I am absolutely in love with the Grum. blues (grr) and AJ is getting to be my standard. I had a pile of Holbein, gotten at a fine price on Ebay along with some Old Holland. I liked the Holbein but actually, I prefer more granularity in my paints and Holbein is very very finely ground. The Old Holland has weird colors. I ended up selling the unused Holbeins back on Ebay, and using the proceeds to try the AJ. A good move. If AJ continutes (Davinci) to produce quality paints and extends the range, I probably will be using them most of the time. Only DS's quin coral and deep gold seem to be irreplaceable, for which I put up with their oozy tubes and inconsistent, syrupy carrier in some of the colors. I also like their line of earth colors--AJ could add some better ones in the neutrals line. | ||
Robert |
I like Maimeriblu Indian yellow. A lot of the current indian yellows are the same pigment as WH New gamboge, AJ's, though, is a mix of hansa yellow med and benzamidzalone orange, Haven't tried it buty may be good. Maimeriblu Indian Yellow is a great mixer, contains no green so it really cuts the green in any mix with blues or pthalo green to make some nice hues. I would give it a try but give it some time. It is unusual and takes some experimentation before its merits become fully clear. For instance--you can brush it into a wet green passage and you get instant sunlight. | ||
jdaneman |
Suzy wrote:--I also love the price. I recently took a workshop and the assignment was to paint a large full sheet using watercolor paint almost directly out of the tube. I didn't really like the finished look of anyones work of the class or instructors results for that matter, but my point is that I was the only one not cringing at the use of so much paint. I just lathered it on and had a fun exerise in the process. (By the way, the piece sold in a gallery the next week.!) ________ WOW!!! First, congratulations, and second, send that story in as a testimonial to CJ. It has also occured to me that AJ paint and my former penchant for big paper and big paintings is a good thing. Right now I am doing small stuff, but I like the full sheet--used to paint minimum half and often full but not recently. | ||
Zoe |
Joanna - really enjoyed looking at your recent and other postings. Glad you found a way to show your work. | ||
jdaneman |
Forgot to say, yes, the AJ gamboge hue is excellent. None of the schoolbus yellow which is NOT what genuine Gamboge was like. The real gumma gamboge fades, I have tested this--gets brownish like Aurolein (well, we have pollution in Delaware, so who knows if it only fades elsewhere.) But the wash of true Gamboge is very soft and pretty. The AJ is a fine substitute. Now on to find a good Indian Yellow (so we don't have to gather mudballs where Indian cows have peed after a diet of mango leaves and limited access to water....how it was originally made, as you know.) Which amazes me, as cows ARE sacred in India (more so in some states than others--esp. in Delhi area. They wander all over along with the monkeys) and cruelty to cattle would, you'd think, be against the Hindu religion. | ||
jdaneman |
I meant the ult spreads out nicely. I did side by side swatches with DS and AJ. It's granular, but makes a better midtoned wash than the latter two. | ||
jdaneman |
Robert--it's the Finest, not Academy and yes I did search on the web to find some. It is everything I like in Phthalo Blue--essentially a dye with excellent spreading characteristics, which I also noted in the Ult blue. Why oh Why are they going under? I switched off them years ago when I was a kid (gotta be 40 years ago) and then used WN until they got to me--they are not what they were. Now it would seem Hilary Page is right and Grumbacher made some fine paints. So so sad. Suzy, thanks for the compliment. I had much fun doing this one. As soon as I looked at the dog picture, I knew what I wanted, and I did a thumbnail (brush only) about the size of a stamp to test the palette choices. Bingo. | ||
Suzy |
Wonderful piece jdaneman. Bravo. Love the Gamboge Hue in there...gorgeous. | ||
Robert |
Are you using Grumbacher Finest Thalo of the Academy studnet grade. Finest is hard to locate except on the web, but well worth it whiule it lasts. I love the Gamboge Hue of AJ --it is softer and more friendly than the New Gamnboge of WN. | ||
jdaneman |
I just did a picture using three colors only: Quin Violet, Gamboge Hue (AJ) and Grumbacher Thalo Blue. I was very pleased with the results. Well, make that four colors, because I had a touch of AJ Orchid and used it to resist a bit (it is a bit hydrophobic so pushes the tranparent paint in the dark areas rather pleasantly.) I will put it up on my xanga site as I can't upload here: my firewall IS the issue. http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=knitsnbytes Conclusion: AJ paints are pretty nice. | ||
Zoe |
Mirthful story, Suzy aka Kukana! I may have to try some of these large tubes for all the experiments I make and will sell next year :) | ||
Suzy aka Kukana |
I have actually been pleasantly surprized by all my AJ/DaVinci paints. I don't use them exclusively but pretty darn close. I also love the price. I recently took a workshop and the assignment was to paint a large full sheet using watercolor paint almost directly out of the tube. I didn't really like the finished look of anyones work of the class or instructors results for that matter, but my point is that I was the only one not cringing at the use of so much paint. I just lathered it on and had a fun exerise in the process. (By the way, the piece sold in a gallery the next week.!) | ||
Robert |
Whenever the subject of daVinci / Amer. Journey paints has come up I have consistently expressed my dislike for the paints. But I have discovered two that have solved 2 palette selection promlems that have been bugging me for a year. Gamboge Hue--is a wonderful yellow. I've need a natural subdued yellow to pair up with raw sienna. I haven't like any of the gamboge's on the market(and new gamboges)but DaVinci's which I tried today is for me a perfect mixing yellow. Very subdued and natural. I avoided it because I read that it is made of yellow ochre and hansa lemon--and I just couldn't see that as producing a great paint, but somehoiw this works and it is semi-transparent. Foot in mouth. Raw Umber--I've wanted one single earth dark that I could use for all purposes. Most raw umbers were too light in value and too high in chroma for my use and burnt umbers and sepia too prone to make ugly mixes. This Da Vinci raw Umber finally fits the bill. It has a very deep value and mixes all sorts of wonderful darks with almost everything else on the palette. Other foot in mouth. |
