| Author | Message | ||
  Raliegh |
Robert, doesn't your victory outweigh all the unsuccessful watercolor attempts before hand? As for myself, my success is not exactly arriving but moving forward. The good thing about starting so far behind is I can only get better! | ||
Robert |
Speaking of brands--here is the new Prismacolor Primier Watercolors line: http://www.dickblick.com/zz003/94/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=7617 | ||
Robert |
But I'm going back to Chamberlain's olive geen )my own transparent custom mix made of Indian yellow maimeriblu and viridian plus quinacridone violet (rembrandt permanent red violet. I painted a real successful paintinf yesterday with this palette (sans the green gold and perylene maroon). There was a canoe turned upside down on sawhorses as the focal point. Instead of matching the canoes bright red, I did as Drollerre suggested and moduated between venetian red and cadmium scarlet. What an alive effect. Beautiful. The same with the trees, modulating the highlights between cad. yellow light and olive green. Beautiful. This is a new direction and I like it. My wife thought it was one of the best works I have ever done. Our walls are full of paintings, but another one has gone down to make room or this one. | ||
Robert |
One thing about replacing the quinacridone violet with perylene maroon. An almost identical color can be made from mixing the venetian red on the palette with quinacridone violet. The perylene maroon itself --when replacing the quinacridone violet-- prevents the mixing of anything but very grayed violets. But that is a good thing perhaps in an earth palette since strong violets (saving florals) aren't prevalent in landscapes. Overall this Chamberlain "limited palette" is quite complex and provides a lot of mixing options. | ||
Robert |
Spoke too soon (don't you just love my half-baked posts? Sorry--my personality is flighty--not an excuse, just a fact). So I went to handprint and read more about the pigment. It dries soft, more lemon and mixes wondrful greens with blues. So I gave it a real chance. Though out of the tube and wet it looks artificial, it in fact is a wonderful delicate mixer and I shall keep it. FYI the store was out of W&N so I am using Daler-Rowney, which is probably close enough. So I spoke too soon. It's hard to discagree with Dollere on such matters- he is the expert, and not just of this local group, but, in my estimation, THE expert on matters to do with pigments. Of course, personal choice is still the driving factor. Still, the other option is olive and that is made from yellow ochre and pthalo green, --the yellow ochre will impart that milky opacity I so hate about YO. So green gold it shall be--I would have never tried it otherwise. Thanks. I am now going to try to paint a bit with an earth palette ala Trevor Chamberlain. Let's see what havoc I can wreck on my chosen substrate-- Aunt Jemima Pancakes (buttermilk). | ||
Robert |
That green gold is almost flourescent! Think I'll see if they'll take it back. Fun to try, though. | ||
Robert |
After asking for a recommendation, I remembered that I could just go to handprint. It seems now I will go out today and get W&N Green Gold and Daler-Rowney Perylene Red (more violet than the maroon) and see how these work in an earth palette. Thanks, | ||
Robert |
Would you mind recommending a particular brand (and trade name for ID purposes) for perylene maroon and azo green gold? Also what do you think about using Venetian Red (I use Maimeriblu) as the primary red? Thanks. | ||
drollere |
the only quirk i am aware of in subdued palettes is a preference for an intense orange or red orange paint. the 18th century painters had lots of earth (iron oxide) choices, plus dullish brown pinks (yellow lakes), plus dullish carmine lakes -- and vermilion. i was intrigued to discover that trevor chamberlain's palette consists of: (cadmium yellow) (PY37), raw sienna (PBr7), burnt sienna (PBr7), (cadmium orange) (PO20), burnt umber (PBr7), (cadmium red) (PR108), venetian red (PR101), quinacridone violet (PV19), ultramarine blue (PB29), cobalt blue (PB28), viridian (PG18) and olive green. the cadmiums are in parentheses because chamberlain claims to "keep them up my sleeve" and use them infrequently for bright color accents. i think there's more to it than that. for one thing, the cadmiums and iron oxides mix very well together -- especially if you use a "transparent" red (which the winsor&newton burnt sienna is) and yellow (which raw sienna often is). this is why he doesn't use yellow ochre, for example. what clicks immediately for the experienced painter is the pairing system: cad yellow/raw sienna, cad orange/burnt sienna, cad red/venetian red. so an obvious experiment is to play around with mixing the earth pigments with the cadmiums so that you dance back and forth across and around the boundary between intense (orange) and dull (sienna) colors. this produces to my eye a very intriguing, warm, "three dimensional" effect. the other really intriguing choice is the quinacridone violet in place of a rose or carmine paint. (he's clearly not a botanical painter.) apparently the key thing at the red violet side is to have a dark pigment. i like perylene maroon (PR179) because it produces very nice mixtures with the cadmiums and earth pigments. but a green gold/olive green and quinacridone violet can mix some amazing, hard to describe colors. (i would replace the olive green with a transparent azo green gold, but that's me.) in context the dullish cobalt blue and viridian make perfect sense; they complete the circle at moderate chroma, and anchor the cool side in a way that will make the warm colors, when pushed gently with the cadmiums, glow in contrast. | ||
George |
Robert, I use a traditional earth palette at times. The yupo web site uses all Caps to spell yupo (YUPO), but I see your point about how it could seem like shouting at this site. I never thought of that. Thanks. | ||
John Preston |
Robert, I pretty much do that in all mediums. But the idea is to stay almost fully in the low chroma range, except for the occasional accent. Too much mixing of high chroma colors with earth colors gives the picture an ambiguous harmony (high chroma yellows are particularly difficult). The idea is to "force" the bias of the subdued color by placing it near another subdued color whose bias is complimentary: eg. making indian red appear red violet by putting it near terre verte. The early English artists excelled at this sort of thing, though it's 180 degrees off from contemporary color attitudes. Still, when done right it's beautiful. | ||
Robert |
So I am curious--does anyone here use a palette designed to reproduce the subtle tones of nature, ie a tradional earth palette, one excluding the bright fully saturated colors?? I am curious about this and might like to try it--my problem is that when I include burnt umber and or sepia I am asking for trouble. | ||
Robert |
Sorry George--I've since noticed the exchanges on the YUPO threa dand will go there instead of here for the controversy. BTW--even though the company capitalizes the word Yupo, it is still a word (there are not periods after each letter) and as such should not be capitalized in normal communication. Also, to capitalize letters in an internet exchange is the same as SHOUTING, which is rude. | ||
Robert |
What, George, in his physical descriptions of Yupos properties, was in error? Art you saying Yupo is absorbant, for instance? It seems Drollere knows enough about Yupo to describe what it is and is not quite accurately and with authority. | ||
George |
Good post. You know very little about YUPO, but make up for it in your knowledge of color. | ||
drollere |
i haven't seen any paint manufacturer claim to follow one or another kind of color order system, as reported by robert in the first post. the ostwald and ncs systems are said to be more "art friendly" because they explicitly define all colors as a proportion of pure hue, plus some mixture of black and/or white. this is the time honored way that painters describe colors and think about color mixtures. ostwald explicitly claimed that his system defined harmonious color relationships, but to my knowledge the main evidence for this claim is in ostwald's idea of "nuance": two colors have the same nuance if they consist of the same relative proportions of pure color, black, and white. for example, matching pastel colors used in "harmonious" interior decor are often the same nuance (dilution by white), but different hues. the munsell system, in contrast, was designed to do two things: (1) make the color attributes of hue, chroma and lightness completely separate dimensions of color measurement, and (2) define the intervals of hue, chroma and lightness so that they are perceptually equal -- that is, he wanted to define yardsticks for chroma or hue or lightness that meant the same thing no matter which two colors you were comparing. a large amount of color research went into the second issue, culminating in the conclusion that it's an impossible goal if you only have three dimensions of color to work with ... but that's a digression. i have no idea what a paint company can intend when it says its paint line is based on one or another color system, unless the intention is to shock and awe its customers, or wave marketing voodoo over their little tubes of gum. it's paint, dudes. colors are derived from pigments, so the real issue is whether you can get the necessary and sufficient selection of pigments within a paint line. (if you can't, just buy the paints you need from somebody else.) the real criterion for judging a pigment line, lightfastness, cost and other obvious issues aside, is the COLOR GAMUT created by the paints. the gamut is simply the range of colors the paints can actually mix. if you think of the munsell or ostwald systems as a giant color apple representing all possible paint colors, then the gamut is just how big a bite of that apple your palette can take. expressive painters want palettes that can push the envelope of chroma or color intensity, so they can make an eclat, bang, loud stimulus. realist painters tend to like subdued gamuts because this matches the range of natural surfaces under normal lighting, and it's a real chore to start with intense colors and then try to dull them down. the most significant flaw i know of in paint brand design is in the selection of pigments. my complaint with the grumbacher line, for example, is that the spacing between different paints is poor, especially in the warm hues. if you buy a different pigment, you should buy access to a really different part of the color space. this is what really affects the color gamut -- not the sheer number of paints. i'd wager that with just eight paints, well chosen, i can mix a wider range of colors than some artists who have 20 or more paints on their palettes. as several posters here pointed out, color harmony is entirely in the hands of the painter; the viewer judges "color harmony" (whatever that is) in terms of the total ensemble of colors and the image the colors create. colors that make a very harmonious bowl of fruit could make a disastrous portrait. in my view there simply are no hard and fast rules or universally satisfactory palette selections, despite what "color theorists" claim to the contrary. | ||
George |
Yeah, different light will make a color look different. This causes problems for the plein air painter when one color that looks good against another color outdoors changes its relationship to the second color when the painting is brought indoors. For this reason plein air paintings almost always need some small adjustments back in the studio. The same problem can occur when the painting is done under one kind of artificial light and hung under another kind of artificial light. | ||
Robert |
George and garydoc- I'm not sure this example is what you are talking about, so let me know if it's not: Wed. night in the studio I did a limited palette landscape of a winter grassy field, behind which were some buildings behind which were some trees. The next day I went for a drive and saw a similar scene and painted it on site. In both I limited my palette to Grumbacher Finest Ultramarine and Maimeriblu Raw Umber. The background trees, using this mix, were a pure blue grey on the painting done indoors under artifical light at home. Out in the field at eleven AM and sunny, the same mix was clearly olive green! | ||
George |
Garydoc, very true, and I should add that your comment about paint “that matched under sunlight may not match under artificial light” explains why plein air painters make corrections when they return to the studio. | ||
Garydoc (Garydoc) |
George, regarding your quote about the Munsell chart...it is very true that a color may reflect light differently in different lighting situations. The military has made use of color deficient people as spotters, because camoflage cloth cannot reproduce (exactly) the reflectance of leaves, etc. and the visual pigments in their eyes process differently enough to pick up the changes. Most people with "normal" color vision can't tell the difference...BUT, in unusual lighting situations two swatches that matched under sunlight may not match under artificial light. They are not blowing hot air (in this instance) | ||
George |
That’s a good question. I think I recall that I saw a place for questions at the Holbein web site. Maybe you could drop the question there, and ask if they intend their full palette to be able to reproduce the entire Munsell color swatch library. If you do, please lets us know what they say. | ||
Robert |
Thanks-- I did some looking and found that Munsell natural system (upon Which Holbein is supposedly based) has a book of thousands of color swatches. Holbein offers 108 colors (not 24) based upoin the system. It is logical that they intend their full pallette to be able to reproduce the entire Musell color swatch library. | ||
George |
The people at Munsell sell the following color chart. “The ColorChecker is a checkerboard array of 24 scientifically prepared colored squares in a wide range of colors. Many of these squares represent natural objects of special interest, such as human skin, foliage and blue sky. These squares are not only the same color as their counterparts, but also reflect light the same way in all parts of the visible spectrum. Because of this unique feature, the squares will match the colors of natural objects under any illumination and with any color reproduction process.” It would be my assumption that any paint can be mixed to match the colors on the color chart, but I would not assume that further mixing of the paints within the line would give any special (or unique) properties. Anyway, that’s how I would read it. | ||
Dake happy W&N user |
I wont attempt to broarden the already well developed discussion, however I'd like to make a comment on colour and manufacturers. I live in a part of the world where a monopoly exists as far as distributors or more accurately retailer/s are concerned(or should that be IS concerned). I was bought up to believe that only three brands of watercolours existed. Winsor and Newton, their student range, and Art Spectrum who I can only say remarkably live up to their analysis by Bruce McEvoy.LOL I think playing the mixing brands game may make the watercolour caper even more tricky, a convenience colour added here and there for specific purposes may be appropriate but not a complete multicultural box. From some careful observation and testing on pigments found on my palette I was able to successfully reproduce without mud, a full spectrum, (i did have to add two new colours to do it) from my so called tradtional figure/landscape palette.I had to add pthalo green and a cool yellow. I think that manufacturers of the standing of Winsor and Newton have designed their range to form the full spectrum plus earth pigments to blend harmoniously when used spectrally correctly...if that makes sense. I'm not sure that mixing brands could allow one to work with the same confidence. It removes one more x factor from the math. Working with a limited palette still requres pretictability of interacton between your pigments. I certainly appreciate the "system" my pigments belong to. When you can make a full chromatic spectrum swatch saturated but smoothly blending with a handfull of pigments it sure says something for the science behind the stuff in the tube. THANKS W&N CHEMISTS hehe-hehe-hehe:-) | ||
Robert |
I like the palette I've designed through trial and error, but keep thinking someone has been so attentive to all of the permutations that they consider the ramifications of mixing as well as placement on the color wheel. That's why I've loved Maimeriblu becasue all o fthe colors mix so well together. However, now that I've discover the superiority of Holbein cadmium yellows, I'm woindering if the same is true of Holbein. I've already switched to their raw and burnt siennas (which are shifted toward the yellow from Maimeriblu but are still very diluted and thus are obviosuly designed to be mixers, not browns per se) and Ult. Blue Deep (which is shifted toward violet compared to others) and these all make nice harmonious mixes, even better than Maimerblu. I think the different placements of all the colors I've tried will have a net effect of making the color mixes seem more natural. I guess I'll have to get my whole palette in Holbein to find out. | ||
Eugene |
Robert and George, I’ve read your posts with interest. I too, would like to find one brand that is completely compatible and mixes perfectly. But over the years I’ve found favorites from different manufacturers. Generally, I like WN. I’ve tried the nice big cheap tubes of Da Vinci and American Journey, but many of the colors are not the same. Especially in the earth colors. For example; I use raw umber to “Temper” my greens, so I bought a tube of DaVinci. It was a completely different color from WN. I gave it to a friend (or enemy). The siennas also vary greatly. And with apologies to Cheap Joe, I don’t like the cute names he gives to his colors--Skips Green, Andrews Turquoise, Peachy Keen, etc. I use Alizarin mixed with thalo green to get darks, In some brands alizarin comes out of the tube almost pink so there’s no way you can use it to make a dark. In other dyes and staining colors I don’t notice much difference. I’ve found that my best choices come by trial and error. I don’t really look at the labels because I really don’t understand them. I admire those of you that have a more scientific approach and can understand these things. But for me it's hit or miss. | ||
Robert |
One other thing--If H. were trying to tempt me with wild claims, they'd make these claims in their literature. All of this info re color design systems and electron microscopes etc I've learned through tid bits being dropped in various discussions and articles. It seems as if Holbein is not broadcasting this stuff which makes it seem more of a proprietary secret than a sales pitch. | ||
Robert |
I see your point about wild claims. Holbein claims they design their colors on a specific system that others seem not to. Does that mean they are making a wild claim? I would think their claim is probably true. They probably do use this system. What does that mean? What things are they taking into account to cause them to make their choices? Does it benefit me or you if we use the paint? It's good to be cynical about the best hamburger in the world claims but I don't think everyone all of the time everywhere is trying to pull one over on me, personally. I think there is such a think as dedication to quality and that dedication resulting in increased market share. I've read that Holbein uses electron microscopes and such gadgets to test their paint. That sounds to me as if they are serious about product quality. Of course I may be wrong. It may all be smoke and mirrors. But I'd like to know more. I am interested in the tools that will make my work both easier and better. | ||
George |
Robert, I got to talking to someone and had a long delay in hitting the post button so I just now read your last post. I think you have a really good question here (computer color design utilizes munsell's theories. The fact that Holbein claims to do this and this separates them from the others gets my natural curiosity operating. Exactly what does this mean.) To be honest, I don’t know the answer. I’ll take a shot at a guess (only a guess). The hamburger joint down the street claims to have the best hamburger in the world, and the pizza joint across town claims to have the best pizza in the world. So, either I live in a town with two world famous restaurants or the owners are trying to make me interested enough to test their product. Maybe the paint manufacturers are doing the same. | ||
George |
Robert, Yeah, I guess I was saying that I don’t think a company that design's it's color offerings according to a scientific color system worries very much about how these colors will mix in typical mixtures to produce new colors. Not that I don’t think that this is a consideration. I do think it’s a consideration, just not a major consideration. For example; I don’t think company A worries very much if its raw sienna and its cobalt blue make a muddy green because the raw sienna might mix really well with the Thalo blue in the same line. I guess I believe that creating useful and pleasing hues in mixes is something that will happen anyway, so the paint company would (I assume) spend more consideration on the working properties of its paint line. But, as I said eariler, I admit that I could be wrong. I’m not clear on the point you made about the convenience colors (PG 36 pthal green yellow shade and quinacridone gold whereas American journeys sap green is pthalo green blue shade and yellow ochre). I’m sure you have a good point that you are trying to make here, so I’ll accept that the confusion is my fault. | ||
Robert |
And upon rereading your post that your understanding is that a well manufactured line has " a good representation on the color wheel," I think that is obvious from looking at the paint swatches of each company in most catalogs. However, my point is that with some companies there may be more at work. I go back to the original question--what exactly is involved in designing a paint array upon "Munsell's Natural Color System" as Holbein does? I know that if you go into the control panel in windows and want to customize your colors--they show a box of colors and that is a Munsell set of swatches. I know that computer color design utilizes munsell's theories. The fact that Holbein claims to do this and this separates them from the others gets my natural curiosity operating. Exactly what does this mean and what are they doing and most of all what are the intended benefits for me, the artist? | ||
Robert |
First, I don;'t understand your No!--Do you mean you don;t think a company that design's it's color offerings according to a scientific color system worries about how these colors will mix in typical mixtures to produce new colors? If I mix companies A raw sienna with Company A's cobalt I might get a muted green but if I mix A's cobalt with B's sienna I might get a muddy brown. I am talking about color harmony--creating useful and pleasing hues in mixes as well as merely using them straight for the tube. I think paint handling characteristics and all the other stuff is a separate issue that you are raising but that I wasn't. For all of the info on what pigments there are and what pigments go into each color of each company check out the color section on Handprint.com. There are a lot more fancy names, but a wide variety of pigments are used and they vary somewhat from manufacturer to manufacturer. For instance sap green of winsor newton is made from PG 36 pthal green yellow shade and quinacridone gold whereas American journeys sap green is pthalo green blue shade and yellow ochre. It would too much room to cite all of the examples. My point is that in addition to the obvious design of a color line to represent a systematic color array, I think, but would like more evidence, that some also are attentive to the various typical mixes that are likely to arise and design accordingly. For instance, some maufactuers create earth colors that work together as mixers (Holbein, Maimerible), Whereas the earths of others are simply strong browns (Grumbacher). Maimeriblu's siennas, umbers, and ivory black for instance could not possibly be designed as stand alone colors. There are extremely dilute but work great as mixers with their blues. It would be easy to assume such planning does not occur, but what if it does. It would be useful knowledge because to best tools make the work easier. | ||
George |
No! My understanding is that a well designed color line has a good representation of the color positions on the color wheel (thus resulting in many colors that are mixtures of pigments – called convenience colors). As far as the basic pigments go, all the manufacturers use the same few pigments. My understanding is that the minor differences in quality (working properties) are the result of minor differences in manufacturing processes at different industrial/chemical plants (as well as differences in additives). But, I admit that I could be wrong. | ||
Robert |
I was thinking that a truly well designed color line would have colors that mixed easily for maximum saturation and effect. | ||
George |
My guess is that the whole color system thing would only be important to the watercolor artist who uses a 40 plus color palette. You know, the ones who have so many colors that they don’t have to mix colors very much, if at all. On the other hand, I think that the color system thing means nothing to the limited palette watercolor artist. They can mix their own color harmonies. I don’t know what the ratio between the two groups is. From what I’ve seen I’d put the percentages at about 50/50, “limited palette” painters to “a tube for every color I can think of” painters. In case it doesn’t show I should add that I really don’t understand the “a tube for every color I can think of” painters. I’d like to understand them. If any of you who read this is “a tube for every color I can think of” painter please offer some insight into your reasoning. I’d like to learn more about your way of thinking (painting?). | ||
John Preston |
I bet I could make an unharmonious, nasty looking picture no matter how sophisticated a color system the paint manufacturer came up with. | ||
Robert |
I,from time to time, stumble upon references to the fact that various paint companies base their color offerings on the work of this or that color theorist. For example, I have read the Holbein bases it offerings on Munsell Natural Color System. Handprint has quite a lot about Munsell, but not upon how it is applied to the color offerings of Holbein. I also have read that DaVinci bases its offerings on the pigment preferences of Michael Wilcox (not the same as color preferences BTW). It seems that of all companies I have read about the American Journey has colors willy nilly offered from several influences--the basic Wilcox Da Vinci colors, plus creations designed by various favorite artists such as Skip Lawrence. re. American Journey, theis may be great for getting that special color Skip uses in his workshop, but I would think an overall offering NOT based upon a consistent color system would wreck havoc on the way the paints "relate" to one another. In one of the catalogs I read that the new Shin Han watercolors are "refined to the international color system of Munsell, Ostwald, and the Natural Color System." I wonder if this is just so much smoke and mirrors or if this actually MEANS something recognizable in the harmonies of that mnufacturer's palette. I do know that Holbeins colors are very harmonious (Tom Lynch states this is why he uses all Holbein) and if they claim it is because of adherence to the "Natural Color System" that would imply that using all Holbein paints would enhance color harmony. The same assumption might be made about any company's color range based upon a unified color system, and the contrary assumption--OVERALL DISHARMONY--MIGHT BE ASSUMED ABOUT THE COLORS BASED ON SEVERAL INPUTS, SUCH AS AMERICAN jOURNEY. This is all abstract speculation and is not substitute for painting, yet life is not just about painting, it's also about thinking, which is where this fits in. Any thoughts, experiences, insights, speculations? |
