| Author | Message | ||
  Raliegh |
What a good business. The art supply distribution! (I'm not sure about the cow 'shi shi'):P | ||
Sid |
First, buy a drug store. Then start carrying art supplies like paint brushes and paper. Then slip in the homemade Indian Yellow, then develop a creative catalog,,etc, etc,,,, | ||
victoria |
Wow, Rallegh, sounds as though you are all set to produce your own personal supply of Indian yellow. Heck you could go whole hog and set up your own artist's supply company---people would probably pay dearly for the real thing. Doesn't sound too complex. What an opportunity! Victoria | ||
Raliegh |
I just got back from visiting a Dairy farm, cows drink 80 gallons of water a day! How expensive is 'genuine' Indian yellow? I've got the mango leaves. | ||
Sid |
Robert: You hit my thoughts right on. I check Handprint to be alerted of obvious shortcomings--fugitive, color shifts, etc. but only occasionally pay attention to the "my favorite color" statements.. That's very individualized, as we frequently learn on this board! Same comments can be said for the Page and Wilcox paint guides. They are "guides." Sid | ||
Robert |
Sorry--I gave the ingredients from memory and made an error--isoidolone plus quin gold--Maimeriblu Indian yellow. I have tried a tube of the Maimeriblue Permanent yellow (benzimidzaole) and really didn't like it at all. I have found a lot to disagree with handprint on--not the technical analysis--that's solid, but the inmplicit (and sometimes explicit) preference for certain bands or colors doesn't often match my taste or experience. Sometimes--very often Handprint recognizes "purity" of composition as equating with superiority in use. I would contened that "impure" additives aren't always used to save money with fillers, but to improve the handling of the product, be it paper or paint. I am not sure how to explain what i am getting at except to say that when all the tests are run, there is still the way the individual paint or paper fits your individual way of painting, subjective color sense, and overall approach. I think Bruce would agree. As I recently discovered, an overriding value to me has become lack of diffusion. Some of the best paints are also filled with ox gall (maimeriblu has the most) and Daler-Rowney and Rembrandt don't have nearly as much. Thus they diffuse very little and the strokes remain more or less as applied. As it turns out they work best for me in my most recent style of retaining all brushstrokes. Thus handprint as great as it is, is just another tool. The most valuable thing in it to me is that all the info is there and we can take away our own choices. Where else can we find out which Ultramarine is reddest by comparing hue angles?? It's a great service. | ||
Sid |
According to Handprint, Maimeriblu Indian Yellow is a combination of Quin. deep gold (PO49) and Isoindoline (PY139) rather than benzimidazalone (whatever that proves?). Handprint recommends the single pigment Maimeriblu "Permanent Yellow" (only PY139) as a better choice. Has any tried it? Always looking for a "perfect", transparent yellow. Maybe this is it?? Currentlly, I'm using M. Graham Azo Yellow Medium as my "primary" yellow, and D. Smith "New Gamboge" for a yellow on the red side. Robert- I'm still experimenting with you earlier recommendation of Greengold as a base for making greens. It's a great yellow substitute in a variety of greens. Thanks for that tip. Sid | ||
Robert |
Story of Indian Yellow: http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/history/indianyellow.html | ||
Robert |
In India certain community discovered that by feeding cattle mango leaves their urine would be bright yellow. This was set out in big pans to dry and sold as pigment--Indian yellow. These days it is made with synthetic pigments. Maimeriblu Indian yellow is one of the great new paints. Benzimidalone Yellow plus a touch of quinacridone gold. No other company makes it from Bensimidzalone. It carries absolutely *no* green, so unlike most other Indian Yellow's and gamboges which are made of Nickel Dioxine (W/N new gamboge for instance) Yellow, and display an orange masstone and greenish undertone (which always suggests jaundice to me, Maimeriblu Indian yellow is apricot color through and through. Mixed with Ultramarine it produces a dull muddy gray brown, proof there is no green reflectance in the pigment. It makes stunning greens that are natural with the pthalos. Brushed back into dark passages it makes very convincing reflected-bounced light. It is full of ox gall and if you touch it to a wash it spreads aggressively--nice effect of light invading darkness if you want it. As a solid color used for itself, it is a slightly muted orange that is perfect for more natural orange highlights in landscapes. | ||
Suzy |
No Kidding...really, cow urine??? Would the acid eat through our paper??? I love Mamairi Indian Yellow. If you have never tried it, it is totally different from others. | ||
ROBERT |
Please limit yourself to rose madder and don't go futher and be tempted to try genuine Indian Yellow. You know what that's made of, right? (Cow urine) | ||
Eshkenazi |
I'm starting to get this weird temptation to buy some rose madder just to see what it smells like.... :} | ||
Robert |
Thom mentioned "the joy" of a limited palette. It just occurred to me one the quiet joys is color mixing. On a large ceramic round plate designed for watercolors, I place a puddle of three primaries-- I bring in other colors from time to time but most of the painting is done with three primaries I select for that painting . The fun is in watching the colors mingle and merge on the plate to form various shades of green, orange, violet, gray and brown. I get a lot of subtle color variations this way. It is pleasing. A self-indulgent joy. | ||
Jane Freeman |
I use only Daniel Smith colors and so will be interesting to try some others...but I must admit, I am completely happy with what I have and also know what they do...it is always time consuming to start over and try to learn the qualities of different paints...but I have found this interesting as well! I have plenty of fugitive paint that I bought because someone said it was wonderful and they could not live without it...workshop teachers at that! But as I learned about them I deleted them...still miss Rose Madder for it's wonderful smell however! | ||
beth |
You'll must admit.....this entire thread has been extremely educational...at least for me! We start with mixing colors, talk about a fugitive color and move on to other colors that are enjoyed by different people and it has brought up more questions. I love this. I am going to examine 'the handprint' a little closer for information on other brands than the ones I am currently using. As for the brief misunderstandings....we are passionate people, so passionate postings are a given. We love our work and we feel strongly about certain things. That is what makes the world go around! We would certainly be boring people if we all thought the same way! I am learning a lot! | ||
Robert |
I think it is interesting how the speaker in the passage you quote prefers the winter to to the "cruel" spring. Regarding your colors that no "paint line" can capture--I know the feeling. I try so hard to capture those visions of color with paint and it always seems to never match the beauty of nature. You are right though, Terry, the vision--the pure overwhelming rush or beauty is the thing--without that there is no art. Art is a weak finger trying to point at such overwhelming beauty. I am still interested about why a poem so filled with death so lacking in color (lilac maybe the only thing in a poem of hundreds of lines), and so filled with literary allusion as opposed tio natural description has inspired color visions? It is not idle curiosity, but sincere curiosity over how this happened--since I think the poetry connection is quite fasination. Chinese poet/painters of the Tand dynastyused to inscribe poems on their watercolors. I have alwyas though of watercolor as the poetry of paintins (oils would be the novels). | ||
terry |
I see colors that no paint line comes close to. How do you get the brillant not-quite yellow of the forsythia....or the pale yellow spread of the daffodil. Tree bark, last fall's hay rolled in a field. The pale green grazing grass punctuated by bright green taller grass feeding off last years manure. From Georgia O'Keefe to Monet....it's all there on my nightly walks with my wife. | ||
Zoe |
Thanks for sharing that bit of poetry, after all its April, Poetry Month. Now I'd be oh, so, curious, what colours you see in that poem. | ||
Robert |
Hurry up please, it's time! | ||
terry |
APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain. Winter kept us warm, covering Earth in forgetful snow, feeding A little life with dried tubers. Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade, And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten, And drank coffee, and talked for an hour. Have been following your thread for some time now and hope that we can continue to educate one another on the topic of art and life. The begining of Eliot's poem above is my palette. As with all poems/art/palettes, some colors stand out more than the others. I like them all and each season gives use some more to use. At lunch today, I walked and took pictures of trees beginnng to leave against the white puff ball blue sky. Keep growing and exploring. I'll keep reading. | ||
Robert |
Revision--After a couple of days of painting, I just don't have the patience to mix and mix and mix to get a natural raw sienna, and any "cool" (ooooooohhhh I hate that term) yellow is impossible. Also a violet blue (ultrmarine or indranthene blue) would be useful. Thus I think a split primary plus raw sienna is as limited as I can get. So once again Michael Wilcox is dead on target (see Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green). | ||
Robert |
These thoughts on a limited palette have really had an influence on me. I have been trying for a long time to pare down my palette so that the color choice angst decision making in the heat of painting is kept to a minimum and so that the painting will gain unity because only a few colors are used. That coupled with the fact that my style is evolving in the direction of "show every brushstoke." I want my watercolors to somewhat resemble painterly oils in that I want evry stroke to be revealed. those of you who have tried this know it is frustrating becasue wet in wet, watercolors tend to blend and dry in a homogenous tint no matter how many colors were stroked in when wet. I had learned that Holbein paints used no ox gall so I began using them, but so many of their paints are fugitive (even their permanent yellow! Go figure). Also, they just replaced the ox gall with something else becasue the paint still disperses. I have tried , I thought everything, except the opbious--checking the "dispersion rates" of the various paints on the charts on handprint.com. I did this and was able to find paints with zero (non-existent) or 1 (virtually nonexistenet) dispersing rates in the pigments I want in my limited palette, They are few and far between but they exist: Here is my new limited palette, with brands. The brand listings are important becasue these are paints that do not disperse but stay exactle where you place them.. I just finished a painting and it is exactly what i dreamed off--all of the brushstrokes are there. Not to mention the fact that these colors are the most beautiful IMHO versions of their respective pigments I've seen. And they are all transparent: Daler -Rowney Gamboge Hue Rembrandt Permanent red Violet Daler-Rowney Pthal Blue Red Shade Daler-Rowney Pthalo Green Maimerblu Burnt Sienna (W/N Cad. Scarlet--Please note --I have not found a replacement for Cadmium Scarlet (W/N) which handprint rates as semi-transparent with a diffusion rate of 3 (active diffusion). It doesn't spread for me, so I'm keeping it--only use it for accents and graying clouds anyway) There it is--a 6 paint limited palette that seems to work well and with paint displaying no diffusion. I am going to try to stick with this. | ||
Robet |
I also like "Gamboge hue" a lot as a convienance mixture--only the daler-rowney one. It is a mixture of lemon yellow (hansa) and new gamboge and is a great mixer for greens. | ||
Suz |
Ditto to the Mameri Indian Yellow. I LOVE it almost as much as Opera. I also have the idea in my head that DS Quin Gold is somehow better to my liking than any othet I've tried. I also really like DS gold green...or is it green gold? Never found a sub anyway. | ||
Robert |
Permanent Alizarin is a blend of Permanent rose and windsor red--(I actually use Rembrandt Permanent Red Violet for this spot in my palette and it is great--closet thing to it from W&N is Permanent Magenta). To answer your question, Thom, Maimeriblu makes an Indian Yellow that is totally different and is the only company that makes it with the pigment used. It is totally irreplacable in my palette. I've tried virtually every other gamboge and indian yellow on the market, but this Maimeriblu Indian Yellow is totally unique and I love using it--addicted. | ||
Eshkenazi |
Curious - I was leafing through an art catalog yesterday because that's what I do for fun mostly (sad, isn't it?) and noticed that Winsor&Newton listed "Opera Rose" (which was described as a 'permanent alternative to Holbien's product) And "Permanent Alizarin"--which I'm assuming is supposed to be a lightfast version of AC. Has anyone tried/tested these? | ||
Zoe |
W&N apparently changed its formula for Quinacridone Gold (three pigments, instead of one). I was able to grab an old tube at my local art supplier this week but the new one are in the rack. | ||
Thom |
Curious--since we are on the subject of palettes: Is there are specific brand and specific color/pigment that you use that is totally one of a kind, not interchangable with another brand of even the same color name? | ||
jdaneman |
Ha, made my day that limerick. I also read about PY49 (the lovely Quin Gold) being in limited supply over the next 10 years or so until it is gone. The auto industry stopped having it manufactured for cars (I guess taxicab yellow or that rusty gold is rather retro and passe.) Now that they don't make it, there is no source for the tiny paint market. Daniel Smith say they have plenty, but it is distressing because it IS a wonderful color to use. | ||
Robert |
Good one-- ROTFLOL I might recommend Maimeriblu Rose Lake as a perfectly lightfast very bright quinacridone (species of PV-19)lightfast alternative to Opera. | ||
Eugene |
Fugitive limerick I think opera's a beautiful shade, However, it's certain to fade, Though I know I'll have foes, I'll use Permanent Rose Until something better is made. | ||
Thom |
"It occurred to me a while back that a separate thread about permance of materials and how and why that is important to all artists' work might be a good idea." Ah Patrice--you are taking sides in the debate! You are asserting that permanence of materials is "important." Some here would vigorously disagree with such an outlandish proposition! | ||
Patrice |
It occurred to me a while back that a separate thread about permance of materials and how and why that is important to all artists' work might be a good idea. | ||
Robert |
I plan to forthwith drop the "opera" drama and be a pleasant person for a change. I am not sure anything productive can be said on the topic anyway. I find heated debate to be enjoyable. Call me perverse. | ||
Robert |
I think it was the fresco process on damp walls. | ||
Anonymous |
Do you suppose that he used opera to paint "The Last Supper". Is that why it's fading away to nothing? | ||
Robert |
Thom--I for one think that the use of fugitive pigments is unquestionably a bad idea for selling to clients who intend on collecting the painting as a permanent object**regardless** if they are informed. I don't think *informed consent* covers 2 important items-- 1) trust--most clients tacitly trust the artist not to do anything that would blantanly damage the work. I'm not sure that by saying one of the pigments in fugitive means a lot to them, unless you say: "Portions of this painting will evently fade away." I doubt many people would suspect an artist would intentionally create a fading product, though some do, obviously from prior comments. 2) the reputaion of watercolor--once not so long ago watercolor was considered a fading medium and not worthy of collections. Lower prices and a dearth of watercolors on display in museums is a result of this history. Most modern pigments are very lightfast and it is time to assert the permanence of watercolor so it can gain credence as a collectable medium. Intentional use of fugitive paint undermines watercolor as a medium for the rest of us and this is my complaint.. I know some have posted that I am taking a strident self-righteous tone, suggestion that I am not "livign and left live" on this issue. Yes, the use of fugitive pigments is a problem, but that's between the client and artist. What is not so private is how those actions effect me and other wtercolorist's indirectly by perpetuation the "fugitive" stereotype we are so hard trying to avoid. And becasue of this I am outraged at such cavalier attitudes. A cavalier attitude like "I use fugitive pigments am am proud of it" is really problematic for me, and no amount self-confident bravado will change my mind that this practice is hurting me as a watercolor artist by continuing to make people think watercolor's fade!!! | ||
Suzy |
Robert...Go to the Blue bar on the left...click on formatting and follow instruction under \image. It takes most of us a few tries to get the first one..just take a jab at it. You'll get it. | ||
Suzy |
Patrice... Pantone 225C is close to Opera | ||
Suzy |
Robert, I would never suggest you are an idiot. This conversation is getting out of hand. ...And yes, I think that any responsible artsit should inform potential buyers that a paint could be fugitive. | ||
Robert |
How does one go about posting art on this site? Assume I know nothing. | ||
Thom |
Question-- Is it ethical to sell paintings intended for hanging and displaying and potentially becoming long term heirlooms that have been painted with fugitive paints. I read the post that showed Holbein states Opera is fugitive. I will have to assume it is regardless of the anecdotal claims (based on short time periods) to the contrary. | ||
Patrice |
Is there a Pantone color that is a good equivalent to Opera? (After reading so much about it, I had to try it.) Are Pantone colors archival? Are prints that have archival quality as brilliant and vivid? Does posterization happen? Suzy, I am mightily impressed with the range of your products. I wish I could do things along the lines that you are talking about but I don’t have a clue about where to begin. | ||
Robert |
Rather that enumerate the multifarious and exhaustive applications of commercial art in modern life, Suz, I merely stated a situation where a fugitive paint would be acceptable--photographing a work to be reproduced--it happens all the time in commericla art. In that situation fugitives could be used without lightfastness becoming an issue. That was meant to be an example, not an exhaustive statement of the nature of commercial art. Your comment insinuates I am an idiot. I don't mind though, since I probably am one compared to you, oh great one. | ||
GaryDoc |
Thom, I must admit that I too use a mostly limited palette, and I tried to find something I painted w/ only 3 colors recently to demonstrate. (its not currently on my computer so it'll have to wait.) It is a challenge & worthwhile to get it to come out right when it works, but I will use lots of colors sometimes too. I love this site because of the polite disagreements. You can't learn from someone who does it just like yourself! Suzy, so sorry, I was only teasing & it started up the whole fugitive thing again. Show us more of your fineart stuff too! It does so much more for me than your mermaids, etc. (altho' I like them too!) Gary | ||
edejan |
Thanks all for suggestions re a good starting palette with affordable artists' quality paints. I have purchased three Holbein, Cad yellow lemon, opera (I can't wait to try it per comments on this board) and permanent green light. Not balanced maybe but I couldn't resist them. As for Maimeriblu - thanks Robert for the suggestion. I found an offer for intro sets in The Artists' Magazine and the distributor is located close to my home. I called and made an appointment to go over there next week. Of course I could order by mail and wait four to six weeks but....I want them now!! | ||
Eric |
I disagree with PatakaAnonymous. When sharing ideas and information, when there's disagreement, I enjoy the debate. The posters here are outstanding at explaining their points. Overall, the posters here seem like great people and I appreciate the information I get from them. The "limited palette" thing was resolved in a polite way. There's no problem there. As for being "anonymous", it's confusing for people to follow the discussion. You don't know if it's one anonymous or several. Nobody has to use their real name; you can make one up if you wish. It's just helpful to know who you're talking to. | ||
PatakaAnonymous |
I just popped into the Discussion Board to catch some interesting conversation but I find the attitude of some contributors so off-putting, I found myself getting annoyed. I want to share my observations, for what they're worth, though it is rare that a person can actually "see" how they are coming off to another. First of all, if a person wishes to remain anonymous here, it is their choice and the person shouldn't be chastised for it. Who cares? Let it be. Maybe when the person feels more comfortable and their ideas are discussed and accepted, they will share a name with you. Secondly, I find the attitude of "my way or the highway" so very annoying, like when a person simply shared his delight in using a limited palette: He was jumped upon with both feet...and then bullied into using a moniker other than "anonymous." Also, there are a few people who have taken on the annoying role of "uber-teacher." If you have rejected a particular technique or material, just share your experience. Don't assume another artist isn't having success with the very same materials or techniques you can't make work for you. Thanks for listening. | ||
Suzy |
Fine art with a splash of opera. FYI...Original is 22x30, nine years old and is as bright today as the day I painted it. I realize 9 years is not a century but the color is holding up well. Wish they could come up with a true light fast opera just the same.  | ||
Suzy |
Fibe art vs commercial. I have no problem separating the two. As a matter of fact, I have three images in my commercial lines that are solely responsible for paying for paying for my new dream house and studio. I am never offended by the title. I do however separate the two when it comes to my work and the workshops I teach. I teach only fine art, I paint fine art...(and I use opera in it too!)But I make my living, put 5 kids through college and built a new home from my commercial art. Art, in all forms, is all I do. My husband is my business manager and we take art very seriously..both fine and commercial. Classifing commercial art as someone who makes photocopies of cute little pictures is not by any definiton even close to what commercial artists do.As a matter of fact, thats downright silly! Look around your home. It is covered with patterns of art in the fabrics that your sofa is covered in, wall papers, the designs on your dishes, and the lines in your throw rugs. Look at the shirt you're wearing...some artist...commercial artist had to decide what colors were going to be in the design and the design itself. My commercial lines which are produced fabrics, art prints, ceramics, furniture, stamps, stickers, scrapbook papers, cards, bookmarks, dishes, windchimes, and candles are not photocopies! As a matte of fact, my commercial prints and my fine art prints are produced exactly the same way with 4-color offset printing. I do however alter the colors of ink in process using specific pantone colors that are unique to my work. I don't mean to stir the pot here, I am not trying to offend anyones statements..just setting the record straight. Here is a picture of some of my commercial art that was recently released at the Atlanta gift show in January, Its called a "TingleBench" and is produced for me by a company called the Van Group. It is art...and who is to say that in 100 years it won't be at an antique auction as a valuable piece of funky early 2000 century furniture?  | ||
Robert |
I want to be a bit cleaer so I'll try again: I don't think anyone has said or implied that "commercial" art is inferior. This has seemed to revolve around the iussue of fugitive paint. If I intend a painting to be photographed and printed in a brochure and then discard the original, my "commercial" use of the art would allow for the use of fugivtive paint. If I sold a painting at an art fair to a someone wanting to hang a painting in their den and pass it on poossibly to their children, it would be unconscionable for me to use fugitive paint (one might say I have a duty to inform the buyer, at least, but IMHO that labels watercolor as "uncollectible because fugitive' and that to me does a disservice to the entire watercolor community working so hard to gain a level of collectability). To drop the distinction bewteen fine art and commercial art seems to be in the general spirit of politcal correctness plaguing our culture--everything, everyone identical--don't tell the truth, it might offend--cloud it all in neutral obfuscations. Not thanks, no for me. | ||
Robert |
What I meant by the term is to distinguish art meant to hang for centuries (destroyed if fugitive paints are used) vs art that is meant to be produced and used for commercial purposes and the original is not not meant to last centuries, making fugitive pigments viable for use. I agree that some commercial art is great "fine" art as well, but lets not lose sight of one clear fact--commerical art exists -- I would suggest that the images on kid's cereal boxes, for instance, are clearly commercial art with no rational disagreement on the issue making much sense. | ||
Eugene |
I hate this idea of calling art either "fine" or "commercial". What is the difference? Some of our greatest American watercolorists were illustrators as well. Was the Sistine Chapel commercial because it was an illustration and commissioned? I think we should use the same standards for both. What today is classed as commercial may be called fine art tomorrow. | ||
Robert |
Re- John Pike Palette-- I order one of the deep well palettes and low and behold the wells are arranged- along the top and bottom and along one side (as opposed to top and two sides on the regular well john pike palette). It was so disconcerting to me (and inefficient -- having to brush so many colors from the bottom of the palette) that I discarded it. What an awful design! | ||
jandrle |
I use a Pike palette. I have maybe three wells that I vary, the rest are my standard colors. Sometimes I paint with three, four and other times I use more. If I experiment with a new, or different blue, I don't generally use the other blues on my palette. Sometimes I am doing a commission where I have to match colors to something that actually exists, then I use more. And that is a little boring... So I guess I am saying that I do both. Go figure. And I do talk about it when I use two or three, just because I find it so interesting that I can get so many different effects with so few colors... guess it is a challenge. But certainly not the ONLY challenge when it comes to painting. haha Jane | ||
jdaneman |
I've been requested to do that several times, but it would be a full time job, and I have a full time job as a broker, so maybe when I retire (which is my goal--to retire and paint, maybe even in AHEM France and if not there, New Mexico.) | ||
Robert |
Good point J... Have you ever considered illustrating children's books? | ||
jdaneman |
--Fugitive pigments like Opera are best left to the commercial artist whose main intent is photocopying the original.-- And I can add that with the prevalence these days for giclee printing, an artist can confidently use fugitive pigments for a series of PRINTS to sell, and then the issue of fading is moot. Good point above, Robert. Joanna | ||
Robert |
I cut and pasted the following from the Holbein website--The single star after the opera is the lightfastness rating--one star equals fugitive. Three stars, as in the case of cadmium red light, indicates permanent. If a manufacturer "confesses" that their pigment is fugitive, you can be assured it is fugitive. Opera Fluorescent Pigment, Quinacridone Pigment 45170, 73915 * Cadmium Red Light Cadmium Sulfo-Selenide 77202 *** | ||
Robert |
FYI-- If anyone outside this group of posters is reading this, I would like to inform you that Opera by Holbein is indeed fugitive, will fade (maybe not iin two weeks but definately faster than almost all other colors) and is indicated so clearly in Holbein's literature. A responsible artist who has a concern for the archival permanence of his or her work should look long and hard at the use of blatanly fugitive pigments. Watercolors can be painted with pemanent pigments and to do so will go a long way to establishing our medium as a serious choice for collectors. Fugitive pigments like Opera are best left to the commercial artist whose main intent is photocopying the original. | ||
jdaneman |
 Girl in summer kimono, a raggedy-ann doll, both using Holbein Opera | ||
jdaneman |
This is what confuses me: the pink-fuschia pigments are noted fugitive but somehow OPERA is not. A proprietary Japanese variant of that violet-pink color? One CAN overdo Opera, but I once have a painting or two that I had real fun with this color. Will try to post it here. Joanna | ||
Anya |
FYI - On another list just in the last week or so Drollere (handprint) said that "opera" is not as fugitive as he originally thought and compared it more favorably than alizarin crimson and equal to about nap. red. | ||
Thom |
Suz-- Re. this whole issue of limited palette. If I, like you, were a commericial artist, I would avail myself of whatever bright color I could find. It seems like the whole idea of a limited palette in the context of the art you've posted (mermaid) makes no sense, since it is obvious your aim is to delight, amuse and attract by clean graphics and bright colors. Perhaps the "limited palette" idea is more something that gains significance in art that is, for instance, representing an impression of nature, or a portrait. Thus, I think the limited palette approach would only be valid for fine art. I see your point completely; I would use an array of bright paints and even fugitive colors if I were a commercial artist. No reason not to--the aim, goal, etc are somewhat different, IMHO. | ||
Robert |
Caveat Emptor (Buyer beware): Re. Hilary Page's book- She bases her style upon three primaries : aureolin (fugitive), rose madder (fugitive), and cobalt. | ||
Suzy |
Sid, about Opera, Yeah I knew that about Hilary Pages book. I also know from my own experiece that I have never had one fade out to my knowledge, at least to my eye. However Bruce at handprint, who I trust, respect and admire for his knowledge cringes at its mention. However, My love affair with it wins...I love the color. Mixing it with everything I want to add a red to brings it alive with an electicity that I can't get elsewhere. I believe its presence in my paintings, both fine art and in my commercial lines, and whether mixed or straight out of the tube, is one of the signatures of my work. I have performed my own tests for 4 days straight in the hot Florida sun with no fading, either with Holbiens or with AJ Wild Fushia. (I like the holbien better..more electric!)Yet, holbien claims that it is fugitive. I don't get it. Maybe when I'm dead and gone, my opera will be gone too! If thats the case you can bury my tibe with me....And I'll be happy. I gave each of the 22 students in my workshop this past week a squeeze of it (AJ) and they were all thrilled with it. Many had never tried it before and it was a fun experiment for them. | ||
Sid |
Suz -- Hillary Page's in her book on wc paints, says Holbein Opera is, by her lightfast " Very Good." And, she then says again--"Good lightfastness." Take that for whatever it's worth. Tom Lynch uses Holbein colors, including Opera which he calls one of his "Juice" colors (no relation to steroids!!) Sid | ||
Thom |
Suz--I apologize as well--I am new here and not completely in tune but I am working on it. | ||
Suz |
And Garydoc..yeah, yeah... I still love opera!! I know I know...Fugitive! I am simply obsessed! Its out of my control. I have, however, been thinking about having an affair with a tube of Skip green. | ||
Suzy |
Dear Thom..and all. I didn't realize I had caused such a stir. I have been out of town teaching a workshop and just checked the boards today. Thom, I did not post to you personally to try to put you down. Re-read my whole post...I have two very limited pallettes. In fact I painted from one Saturday for my demo. I simply refuse to limit myself to only that one pallette. When I stated the imfamous quote you mentioned, it was not directed to you as if you were bragging... I even commented that I thought it was wonderful that you found such joy in your pallette. That is what painting is all about. No one ever to my knowledge ever posts in this community to be snotty or smug. This board is all about learning, sharing and growing. Perhaps if we had all been talking in the same room we would you would have heard the tone of my voice and known it was not a put-down to you. Please accept my apology. I never meant to offend. I am sincerely sorry if my post was misinterpeted. I am sadden that I offended you. Aloha, Suzy Toronto | ||
Robert |
Edejan: I read your post and would liike to offer some help with your venture into watercolor. A very good brand that is reasonbly priced and is as good as it gets is maimeriblu. I recommend the following palette Cool Yellow: Permanent Yellow Lemon Warm Yellow: Cadmium Yellow Light Warm red; Cad. Red Light Cool Red: Primary Magenta Warm Blue: Ultramarine deep Cool Blue: Primary blue Cyan Cool Blue: Cerulean (you need this for light mixes) Green: Cupric Green deep Earth colors: raw sienna, burnt sienna, raw umber, indian yellow Cheap Joes carries this line: http://www.cheapjoes.com/store/navigation.asp?cat=4695&r=5069 I highly recommend Maimeriblu, an italian company. As far as paper goes, I hgihly recommend waterford cold press, 140 lb--excellent and less expensive, Buy it in lots of 10 22 X 30 sheets: http://www.cheapjoes.com/store/navigation.asp?cat=4836&r=251 And Robert Simmons "white sable" brushes are incredibly cheap and work great. I find myself using them instead of my $100 sable brushes. They are that good. I recommend a #14 round, #10, #8, # 6 rounds Also, 1/2", 3/4", 1" flats Also a #1 rigger http://www.cheapjoes.com/store/navigation.asp?cat=4760&r=948 You will also benefit from the best color mixing guide available: Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green" by Michael wilcox available from Amazon.com Also a beginners watercolor instruction book--this one is good: http://www.cheapjoes.com/store/navigation.asp?cat=6113&r=23422 All the best, Robert | ||
jdaneman |
Actually Joanna (me) is still here off and on,but I just got my stockbroker's license so I am busy in other endeavors than painting for the moment. I miss it!! So I get my vicarious thrills here, looking to see if anyone has posted a great new work or a controversial topic. Sad that Robert is gone. He's something. | ||
Thom |
A split primary palette, mentioned below by another poster, is a good place to start. The spilt primary provides a very wide and INTUITIVE mixing range--one uses a cool and warm of each primary--my suggestions would be hansa yellow light (lemon yellow), cadmum yellow pale (or light), cadmium red light (or cad scarlet or cad vermillion), permanent alizarin crimson (or permanent rose, or quin magenta), ultramarine blue, and pthalo blue. I would add cerulean, raw and burnt siennas and pthalo green. With this palette you can mix almost anything. As far as brands go, some are more opaque and tend to mix mud easier--American journey / Da Vinci (same stuff) is perhaps the worst offender and Holbein the best in this area. | ||
edejan |
I'm so happy to see the posts regarding a limited palette. I've been very reluctant to commit to watercolor - having painted in acrylics for a long time - because of the cost of artists' quality paints and the extreme number of colors available. I've been somewhat dissatisfied with the cheaper brands that I can actually afford to purachse a large assortment of but I have discovered that I usually use only four or five colors in each painting, no matter what subject I'm attempting. I have a decent instinct for color and have been able to create any color I need with this "limited" palette. I now am starting to "invest" in the more expensive brands since I know I can get by with a smaller assortment of colors. The next hurdle is learning the different qualities of each color/brand to mix bright, clear colors. Thanks for the tips!! Of course, I can't wait to get to the point where I can afford an occasional "funky" new color... | ||
Thom |
And, last but not least, the idea of using a primary triad for rocks goes like this: select the yellow, blue and red that tend to prevail in the rest of the painting. Limit your rocks to those three colors. You can make all sorts of browns but also lean them toward any secondary you wish. I've had great luck making rocks with ultra-blue, cad-yell, and cad-red. The cad-red/ult blue "violet' is more of a rock brown that is lovely. The trick is not to over mix or over work the paint (to avoid mud). Often I daub in the primaries one at a time, wet in wet unmixed on top of one another or next to one another, using a Grumbacher sabeline flat 1/2" or 3/4" brush #6142. http://www.cheapjoes.com/store/navigation.asp?cat=4788&r=15921 The trick is to suck away the excess mositure by touching the Grumbacher #6142 brush to a paper towel prior to daubing. This brush is great for drybush effects with rocks (or moving water). | ||
Thom |
I also failed to mention that these were *red* rock formations in Zion NP (thus the colors suited those rock formations)-- I think basing rock coloring on a primary triad, in general, is quite effective. | ||
Thom |
Beth-- I failed to mention that occasionally, to mute the colors, I used cerulean blue--just a touch. | ||
beth |
Thom! I was reading about the colors you use for rocks! Wow! I prefer to work with a more limited pallete (because it is easier to remember what I used to get a certain look) and I am always looking for that perfect combination for rocks. Thank You for your posting. | ||
Patrice |
Raleigh, You left out the 'online.com' part. (inserted smiley) Y'all can see Raleigh's landscape here. Have a great vacation! I painted oil portraits for years and since I was producing a product that was by definition intended to be passed down to future generations, I used a fairly limited palette of colors that were reported to be lightfast. Now, as a newbie to watercolors, I've been having a ball trying a wide variety of colors that often have names that are new to me. That said, naturally, I expect to use only a few colors in any one painting, and as time goes by, I'm sure I will develop an affinity for some. I don't see that as a bad thing, and I don't see being new to the medium of watercolors as a bad thing either. Everyone has to start somewhere. I already know a thing or two about color mixing, and I agree, most any color can be made if one has a warm and a cool of each of the three primaries - plus white - in oils, but now I'm learning a whole new way of working with layers of transparent colors applied one on top of another, much like the printing process, and I'm having fun doing it. Not only that... I LOVE looking at all the pretty colors! No apologies. It's FUN! | ||
Eric |
Yeah, Robert was more active than anyone I've seen on this board and one day, poof! he disappeared. I hope all is well. | ||
Raliegh |
Eugene how nice to be missed. I just posted a W/C I did with a limited palette on Paz site, www.watercolorworkshop. I will be traveling the next 2 weeks as well. | ||
EUgene |
Does anyone know what has happened to Robert, Sid, George, Raliegh and others who were so active and interesting in this discussion group? If any of you are listening, we'd like to hear from you again. | ||
Zoe |
Thom, you sound so like our member, Robert, who has been absent these days. Wondering where he is and how he is doing. As to definitions, I for one may "have" an unlimited number of tubes of paint, but it is with only a select few "limited number, limited palette" that I actually put paint to paper (or canvas). I like harmony, balance and my idea of appropriateness. And terminology and definition often get lost over time or with interpretation. It is somewhat likely that a limited palette did originate with the use of something resembling the split primary. In oil painting 4 colours can be perfect, limited, offer a wide enough spectrum and succeed beautifully. Yet even with the knowledge that a harmonious palette, limited, may develop into a better painting for me, I still find it hard to resist buying all the new fangled colours - just to see how they handle; just to know if they are better or worse than what I already have; just to do exactly what you propose: experiment and see if one manufacturers burnt sienna works better or differently for me. | ||
Thom |
Forgot one point: Part of the "joy" of a rather limited palette is getting to know how a paint handles to the point it becomes intuitive--and this includes getting to know how it reacts in combbination with the other colors on the palette. This is much like getting used to a fine musican instrument and understanding what touches it takes to produce the best tone. I would content that art, in at least one sense, involves mastery of one's materials. (again this is all IMHO) | ||
Thom |
Personal take -- not meant to be a categorical statement of truth (disclaimer): I think "limited" is a relative term. Almost every name watercolourist I have encountered either in workshops or books uses a rather standard palette of somewhere between ,lets say, 12 and 18 colors--in light of what I see a lot of newbies do, this to me is a limited palette, expecially since they don't use all of these colors each painting--(some get by with 5 or 6 , and they have genuinely limited palettes). Still, in light of the trend to use every new color manufactures throw in front of them, some people have palettes in excees of 50 colors. I have been to workshops where literally people had 2 full thirty well palettes going. The truth is that most of those colors are mixes anyway and would guess that no more than 20 actual different pigments are represented in such a huge palette. Some people--and I am not at all implying anything about those on this NG--I talk too keep bringing up the word "mud" as a justification for not mixing but dipping into their gazillion color triple decker palette. I would contend that if the right combinations for colors are chosen, and the right brands are experimented with among these colors, mud is easily avoidable. One example to illustrate what I mean-- American Journey/DaVinci raw umber makes mud everytime I use it while Mameriblu or Sennelier raw umber just makes beautiful mixes. Has anyone else had similar experiences? | ||
Sid |
I keep realizing that these sometimes unnecessarily heated discussions of painting style or technique preferences are interesting, sometimes informative and helpful, but they should never make us mad! It really should make absolutely no difference whatsoever what someone else does (except when you learn something useful). You should (and obviously can) use whatever colors, brushes, paper, water temperature, height of your painting stool, etc, that makes you comfortable, happy, challenged, and able to turn out a painting that looks they way you wanted it to! Even if I use opaque white and you don't --so what?? Let's keep on revealing our personal methods, preferences, etc. and being entertained and amazed that others do things differently! I thought a "limited palette" meant those people who use only the three primaries, or only a warm and cool of each primarly--like only 6 or8 colors on the palette. If 10 and 17 count as "limited" maybe my 20 (John Pike Palette) puts me in the semi-limited category. Like Thom, I typically only use four to six on any one painting. | ||
Zoe |
I always get a thrill from mixing and matching colours - limited or extended. Once a rather nice and well known painter said he had used only two whilst it looked like about 10. I was able to do the variations with his two (believe it was UM and BS) but I could be mistaken. Age is finally setting into my memory backs. But, I surround myself with dozens of colours that's why I am enchanted with Daniel Smith and even W&S. Each colour is like a new flavoured lolly :D | ||
Thom |
Eric--My palette exactly fills up a cheap joes original palette (i think it holds 17)with more or less the standard colors so yours is much more limited than mine. Six of those are earths, which I rarely use. Any single painting uses far less--maybe 5 or 6 tops. I get a real thrill out or making colors from this palette--such a sense of control that feeds the artistic buzz as i paint. I have a big box full of more exotic paints that everytime I use one, I say to myself 'hey that's just like a mix of quinacridone violet and burnt sienna'--why bother with this--I'll just mix it myself and control the nuances. I'm not saying others need to take this attitude, I'm just saying that it is an extra dimension to the thrill of painting for me. And I can easily avoid mud--it's not even a concern. | ||
Eric |
I use about 9 or 10 colors. I don't know if that's considered "limited", but I would guess it's less than most use. I agree Thom, it's amazing how many colors you can get from just a few. I've always felt I can get about any color I need from those colors. But I'm sure the paint companies would disagree. They want you to buy, buy, buy. | ||
Thom |
Let me "redirect": Do any of the rest of you enjoy the process of creating a multitude of colors and effects from a standard, fairly limited, palette? | ||
Thom |
Oh, I took it as saying "I refuse to do what you are doing, Thom, use only four colors so I can "say" I did it with only 4 colors. " I took it to mean my motive was to brag about my abilities." I thought it was intended as a bucket of cold water with a dash of indirect cattiness tossed upon my enthusiam, but what the heck, whether it was or wasn't is immaterial at this point. I'll let it go--water under the bridges-flypaper on the psyche--uncharitable carping--. What's is very clear and not open to misinterrpretation is how nice and welcoming you guys are. I appreciate it. Thom | ||
marie |
Can't we have it both ways? I tend to use a very limited palette -- raw sienna, burnt sienna, cadmium red light, and ultramarine or cobalt blue. At the same time, I cannot resist trying almost every paint I run across. I truly enjoy experimenting with pigments. And it's nice to be able to pull one of the more unusual pigments out of the bag when I need it. Life is short; do what makes you happy. | ||
GaryDoc |
Thom, do you resent her (Suzy) stating her philosophical view in opposition to yours? Her post tells me that she likes color choice, and your post tells me that you had an epiphany about the colors you were using. I refuse to read any more into either post than that. I feel that civil discourse about honest disagreements are what makes conversation interesting, and that is why I read this board. Hope you'll stick around awhile. Maybe I can learn something from you. Gary | ||
Thom |
Me: I am in the middle of a painting of some beautiful multicolored rock formations and it just occurred to me that I am getting all of these color effects from about four pigments Suzy Personally, I refuse to ever limit myself just so I can say I did it all with four colors...Big deal. Spin it all you wish. | ||
GaryDoc |
Thom, I hope you see this. If you read some of the other threads in this board you will notice that "like minded artists" are 50/50 here. That IS the way it should be. If you want to grow, read from people who disagree with you and maybe try it their way for awhile. If you are happy with the way things are with your self and your methods, then read the ones who agree with you and feel smug about those who don't. YOU WERE NOT FLAMED by Suzy. She was talking about herself, and if you read here regularly you would know it! (Opera is fugitive Suzy!) Don't be p'd off and stick around awhile. You'll get to know us and realize that its a good thing that we all think differently. Hope to see you comment again sometime. Gary | ||
Thom |
Well I just noticed another thread with people praising all of the DS varied earth colors. I suppose I just put my foot in my mouth with my assertions in this thread. Well, given some of the reactions to what I honestly felt was a fairly self-evident proposition, "like_minded" artists are not what I am encountering here. Adios Muchacos and happy painting. | ||
Zoe |
Welcome Thom!!! | ||
Thom |
My name is Thom (anonymous earlier) Personal choice is personal choice--as always. My post was intended to express how much fun I was having and realizing part of the fun was "doing it myself." Suzy came back with: "Personally, I refuse to ever limit myself just so I can say I did it all with four colors." I'll let the quality of that statement and what it implies stand for itself and I withdraw all of my comentary upon it. | ||
victoria |
Dear Anon I believe I understand what you are saying and having so many possible rock options does seem to me to be just another selling point. There is a lot to be said for knowing how to mix just the color that you are looking for and to find satisfaction in doing so. There are, however, a lot of people who really don’t like to experiment and mess around endlessly mixing this and that in the hope that the color they are imagining will appear out of the muddle. For those people having premixed colors available are a godsend and not necessarily a slothful shortcut. If I were into painting rocks (which I’m not) I would rather let Daniel Smith spend his time mixing the colors for the rocks of Kilimanjaro and then I would presumably have more time to paint them. It’s what you do with the paint that really counts, don’t you think? Victoria | ||
Zoe |
Dear This Anonymous, nice to have your clarify your statement(s); not so nice to sling arrows at another poster who gladly shares her name, email, favours, etc. It is unlikely that Suz is passive aggressive--and she can and will speak for herself but I am always assertively wondering why folks are more Anonymous than we already are on the net. And whether it is 4 colours or a million, it's personal choice or did that get taken away recently when I wasn't looking :D Have a good day! | ||
Anonymous |
I think what I posted immediately below might be misunterpreted, so let me try again. It's possible i posted originally with a bit of smugness. That's because, looking at the Daniel Smit cat, there are an unbelievable, night infinite, number if offerings from the rocks of sedona, the rocks of Kilamanjaro, the rocks of the moon etc etc. It was in that context that the light bulb went off in my brain and i had a "eureka" moment -- summed up as saying that much of the fun and to my experience, skill, lies in capturing any effect with my usual palette. I am not saying this "just so I can say I did it all with four colors" as another poster asseted, but because I genuinely feel that this is part of my "joy of watercolor." I take exception to the comment that posting about this was "just so I can say I did it all with four colors"--polite words escape me as to a n appropriate response to this. Such indirect passive agressive cattiness, is not unnoticed. | ||
Anonymous |
"Personally, I refuse to ever limit myself just so I can say I did it all with four colors." I agree, I would never intentionally limit my palette to have bragging rights either. I would have enjoyed it just as much if I had not shared my enthusiam with this board. | ||
Eugene |
I find that using a limited palette results in a more harmonious finished product. Funky or unusual colors sometimes sends my painting totally out of balance. So I stick to my palette of about 10 colors, but I seldom use more than about 5 in any one painting. But that's just the way I learned my craft. I also have a drawer filled with colors I seldom used.--always searching for something new. We all paint differently-- than goodness! | ||
Suz |
There are many joys to watercolor. Painting a limited pallette is one. Another is having fun with all the new fangled paints, toys and stuff invented for us "Aqua-nuts". I totally understand the fun of the limited paint methood, (Tried it..One of my travel sets I take has just three, another has 6)and I am thrilled you find joy in your work ...Thats what creating is all about. Personally, I refuse to ever limit myself just so I can say I did it all with four colors...Big deal. I have more fun saying...Hey, I found a funky new color at Cheap Joes...Check it out!.. I think i have the largest drawer full of tubes of paint and I have fun with them all.. Even if its just to know I've tried them. Just my two cents! | ||
Anonymous |
I am in the middle of a painting of some beautiful multicolored rock formations and it just occurred to me that I am getting all of these color effects from about four pigments (quin magenta, dioxazine violet, indian yellow, and cad. scarlet). I know Daniel Smith offers umpteen pigments for the exact purpose of this kind of subject--every sort of earth pigment on the planet and then some (made no doubt from asteroids from deep space). Still, I have just realized that I take deep joy in being able to create all of these color effects with four tubes of paint. I seems like this is really a great part of the joy and skill of watercolor that is completely lost for those who try to purchase their way around this delightful challenge. |
