| Author | Message | ||
  edejan |
Thanks, Robert. Dick Blick is our local area store and I took a trip there but they only carry Holbein and Winsor/Newton in store. I'll look on line. I've reviewed many watercolor books recently and was surprised to find that artists do vary their paint brands and palettes. In acrylics I just stuck to the same favorite colors and the same brand, but it seems there some variation in the way watercolor brands perform and there's a learning curve which I'm struggling with. Thanks again for your advice and help!! | ||
Robert |
One more thing, edejan, Dick Blick on the web has the best prices on Daler-Rowney, with Jerry's Artarama close behind. I will say that my recommendations mean nothing. All professional grade paints are good--none are not worth using-- it all depends on what makes your particular job easier and your particular paintings come out as you wish. Thus, it's always a thing of personal trial and error. I am always amazed when I see how other artists work (look at any watercolor instruction book) because they each use different palettes and brushes and paper and techniques and still each produce beautiful art. It is so very individual and finding your materials is as indicative of your style as the way you apply the paint. | ||
Robert |
One correction FWIW-- I am not going to use Daler-Rowney raw sienna but Holbein raw sienna. The Holbein does not diffuse, but the Daler Rowney diffuses aggressively though the other DR colors I have do not. So Holbein raw Sienna instead of daler Rowney. | ||
Robert |
Here's an endorsement-- I have about 15 colors I tend to use regularly. I have a stockpile of 6 to 8 tubes of each, probably about 120 tubes stockpiled. Daler-Rowney is newly discovered because there is a new Jerry's in town that stocks 'em. I know with such certainty that they are superior for my needs that I am giving away all of my paints except the Rembrandt Permanent Red Violet (the best violet biased red out there IMHO) and am totally switiching to daler Rowney (except for the afore mentioned rembrandt), even at the great expense of replacing my palette and stockpile. I am not saying that by handprint's criteria there are the best. His criteria has to do with the total offerings and such total line design as the spacings between cadmiums etc as well as the amt. of additives. My contention is that additives add potentially to handling ease. Most (but not every single color) of Daler Rowney's do not diffuse(containing very little ox gall). The paint does not shoot wildly wet on wet but stays put! The paint is not overly concentrated (an overly concentrated pigment makes mixing difficult becaue of uneven dominance between 2 colors during the mix). All of the colors have very similar concentrations, whether it is lemon yellow or pthalo blue. (The lemon yellow is great--not chaulky as are most--transparent). Daler Rowney paint dissolves smoothly and instantly. The colors are lightfast (unlike 1/2 of Holbeins). The hues Daler-Rowney comes up with in their colors (the particular French Ultramrine they make, the particular burnt sienna etc ) really harmonize well together. I am a three year user of Maimerblu (after 30 years with winsor and newton)but, though i have touted it in the past on this board, I am totally dropping their paints. Daler Rowney is a perfect match with my requirements and a lot of the frustrations and concerns I always have to work around have just disappeared with my new Daler-Rowney palette. So, with all due respect to Handprint, the final important thing is how the paint works for you--sometimes the paint is designed for the working artist and not the scientist. | ||
edejan |
Robert, glad to read your comments on Daler-Rowney. As you said, Handprint.com basically says they suck but I've heard various colors praised and and am dying to try them. Being on a budget, I've hesitated. But with your endorsement, I think I'll put in a small order. Thanks!! | ||
Raliegh |
I went into Idaho to see family. And your right there where mountains but not MOUNTAIN. The west Mtn behind me rises 5,000 ft and its the 2nd wettest place in the world. I painted pic of my Mom with the snowy slope behind her. I used your suggestion of dioazine violet, cerulean blue, raw sienna, for shadows and added cad red, and Winsor blue. The simple palette has a way of keeping things uniform. | ||
Robert |
Off topic post immediately below--ignore. | ||
Robert |
Interesting factoid I just read--in absolute terms, Mauna Loa is the world's largest mountian. It rises approx 14,000 feet above the ocean and if you measure to its base, at the ocean floor it is higher thanb everest. Funter, the weight of the mtn compresses the earth's crust 26,000 feet. Add to the height of the mountain the actually size of the mountisn is 59,000 feet. I painted it from a distance and soon thereafter found myself looking at the front range outside of Denver, CO. The entire front range would have looked like a tiny zig zag across the coastline of Mount loa. You can't apprecaie just how big that mount is unless you realize that one mount dwafs the entire front range of the Col. Rockies. And theere's no way you can hike up it--it's too many miles and miles--so I withdraw that. | ||
Robert |
BTW Raleigh--Where did you find snow? Did you hike to the top of Mauna Loa? | ||
Robert |
French ultramarine is a specific pigment, so, tho I didn't go back and reread what i posted, I meant it to be a shadow Rx. Cerulean, raw sienna, winsor violet in varying shades makes a rich shadow color--or colors depending upon how it is adjusted-- What elsewhere I said about ultramarine (not french --which is far more biased toward violet than simple Ultramarine) to someone bothered by the granulation is that they could get a non granulating blue from Daler Rowney red shade pthalo (a blue that isn't too green-biased). | ||
Raliegh |
I misread Robert's post re: dioxazine violet, cerulean blue and raw sienna. Robert you meant these ingredients make french blue? I thought you meant they made good shadows so I used them in a winter snow scene. I also added Winsor blue. I am very pleased with the outcome. | ||
Robert |
Oh Eric--I use Ultramarine (Grumbacher Finest--not french) as my main blue. I mentioned the daler rowney red shade Pthalo to a poster who was asking how to avoid ultramarine's granulation--I would see that as an optimal solution, but though I use it, I lean heaviest on Grumbacher Finest (now Prismacolor) Ultramarine. | ||
Robert |
Good plan--I can see how that would nip it in the bud! Thanks GaryDoc | ||
GaryDoc |
Robert (et al), Great response to Anon...who deserved the royal kick in the butt you gave! However, so that we can stop pissing everyone off on this board, from here on in...lets just TOTALLY ignore "anonymous" ignoramuses who don't agree with any of us anyway, and post responses only to those who have chosen a singular screen name! (I really mean TOTALLY ignore...NO responses to anyone remaining anonymous if there is even the slightest amount of flaming going on!) GaryDoc | ||
Robert |
Yes--I like a little granulation--gives the painting character, especially with tree, bark, rocks, and even darker sky. | ||
Eshkenazi |
*Hangs a sign* Please Do Not Feed the Trolls Ahem. Robert - do you not use ultramarine at all then? | ||
Robert |
I agree time for a break--sorry about my part in all of this | ||
Eric |
Robert, pay no attention to "Anon". I think it's interesting that you use Phthalo blue-red shade instead of ultramarine. Ultramarine has always been indispensible in any artist's palette. Are there any other companies that make it, besides Daler-Rowney? | ||
jandrle |
I am out of here... everytime this gets on track it reverts to contentious again. Sigh, just what we need. | ||
Robert |
Oh by the way, I have opinons on Maimeriblu and Grumbacher ultramarines specifically because i have used them extensively and have observed far less granulation that with other branda I have used. I paint at least 8 hours a day and go through a lot of paint. If the person asking about this finds my comment overblown, I regret that I have no other means of communicating my personal experience. | ||
Robert |
Welcome Anon: It always nice to meet someone of your calibre of character. Please serve as my guide and mentor. Anytime I offer an opinion that you feel is out of line, misguided, incorrect, or generally wrong, please feel free at any point to jump in with yours. I am happy you are willing to share your opinion with us. Has your expereince with Daler Rowney been different than mine? Handprint.com says that Daler Rowney paints basically suck. I however find them to be just what I need. To each his own. What do you think about Daler Rowney? What is your favorite brand? Again, thank you for your assesment of my personality. I wish to express how delighted I am that you are participating in the opinion sharing this board was designed to facilitate. | ||
anon |
Ha ha ha ha, reading this thread I couldn't help but chuckle ar how Robert has an overblown opinion on just about everything. It is clear he has a case of Bruce envy on the pigment subject. My advice is for Rob to smoke some weed and go sit on a hill for a while. Chill man! Maybe paint some more...with your fingers. | ||
Robert |
I think you are right--it's a whole lot less and more finely ground that most brands, but to avoid granulation altogether I'd go with a pthalo blue. (Daler Rowney red shade, as I said, is not concentrated, doesn't diffuse, and has a great shade--very easy to handle). | ||
Eshkenazi |
My Maimeri ultramarine seems to have a pretty strong granulation. I switched from Winsor and Newton and didn't notice a change in how 'grainy' it looked. Maybe it's just mine...I'm still on my first tube so who knows. | ||
Robert |
Grumbacher and Maimeriblu still technically have some granulation, it is just just very fine and very very understaded. The Grumbacher is a much prettier blue hue, (the Finest, not Academy). You might also try Daler Rowney Pthalo Blue red shade. I have just discovered it and , along with no granulation, it is a very believable marine color--better, IMHO than ultramarine and much better than what you would notmally think of a Pthalo Blue. This is different, subdued. It is also not overly concentrated so is easy to handle. Maimeriblu makes a similar paint , Berlin Blue, but I think the Daler-Rowney is better. As much as I have touted Mameriblu, our local Jerry's just got in Daler-Rowney. I love the way it handles. Love it. I think I am going to be a convert. | ||
jandrle |
I love doing gradients. Have been using them for several years. In skies and in water too. Just start with one color, move into another... It feels like doing them in Photoshop on the computer, just these even pale washes. Beautiful, they merge and blend and make beautiful colors. Jane | ||
Jane Freeman |
So Robert, you think that the Grumbacher is less sedimentary? I would like to try that then for those sheer clean washes one needs for waterscapes when you do not want it grainy...good to know! | ||
Robert |
Maimeri Ultramarine is more finally ground (but not as concentrated) and it isn't grainy. Even (much) better is Grumbacher Finest Ultramarine (now Prismacolor) (not french Ultramarine). Re. dioxazine violet (Winsor, Carbazole --tradenames)-- a beautiful shadow color is made from it plus cerulean plus raw sienna. | ||
Jane Freeman |
I have been using Carbozole violet...oh did I spell that right or wrong? HA! From Daniel Smith and like it very much. I have also fallen in love with their Manganese blue hue... I think I just read where David Drummond uses maimeri ultramarine for his water as it doesn't act like the others and cause the sedimentary graininess...has anyone else seen this to be true? | ||
Robert |
I know several artists who use dioxazine violet (Winsor, D/S Carbazole) mixed with burnt sienna in place of dark browns such as burnt umber. It also mixes with pthalo green to make a great midnight blue. BTW--You can mix Winsor Violet's hue easily from pthalo blue and either quinacridone violet or permanent rose. | ||
jandrle |
Winsor Violet is the only purple I have on my palette. Like sap green, I never used a purple until I discovered it. Now I use it in every painting. Mixed with burnt sienna it is wonderful. Might consider giving it a try. Jane | ||
sarita |
I'm am presently experimenting with watercolors on Textured CLAYBOARD. It definitely does away with the glass and the paper predicament. Never tears, yellows or gets moldy. However, this support probably would not be accepted by the "watercolor purists". :( Just a thought, in applying a fixative spray along with a UV filtering varnish would this effect the impermanence of certain colors?? Maybe our dear friend Bruce @ handprint can explore this avenue. | ||
Eshkenazi |
Really? - I adore how ultramarine granulates. I never even noticed it until I started painting on hot pressed board and was sort of startled at first. But I think it looks...'cool' :) What I'm looking for now is a really good violet. I can't ever seem to mix one that I like. :\ | ||
Robert |
Mea Culpa everybody--I was having a discussion with someone ( in real space ) who is avowed communist who was claiming all sorts of nonsense about the economy. I came to this board for escape and brought my baggage with me. Thanks for calling me on it. Again, mea culpa. | ||
jandrle |
Using it straight in a pale wash on grass in a landscape is very nice... and shadows pop from it. It has more life, thus is stronger than the pale mixed greens, I think. Blues are great, cobalt turquoise is nice. I have the biggest problem with ultramarine. Just don't care for the graininess. I know it is one of the most frequently used blues, too. I like Prussian and Winsor Violet mixed together. That makes a pure blue blue color. jane | ||
Eshkenazi |
Me too! I almost never use it straight out of the tube. I think I did in one small painting (very small-I think it's something like 3x9)...I can't remember why I decided to use it without mixing something else in. There was a reason, I'm sure. ANYway...I've never tried Prussian...I always see it in catalogs and online and think it looks like such a beautiful color. Right now the only blue I use much is maimeri ultramarine. I use cobalt sometimes but I've been dying to try some other blues. I love blue. :] | ||
jandrle |
Oh no... I LOVE sap green. It is the only green I have ever owned or used. I swore that I would never use a green, was taught never to use a green, to always mix my greens. Then I discovered sap green. It meets every need I have. With purple it becomes olive, with prussian it becomes forest, with both it becomes very very dark. And I found it by accident. Jane | ||
Eshkenazi |
Why does everyone here seem to hate sap green so much ;__; <--- crocodile tears Seriously. I've seen several people mention that they dislike sap green...what's up with that? I like sap green; is there something I'm missing or do I just have bad taste? ;) | ||
Eric |
Uh, Robert...you were the one who jumped all over somebody on this very board several months ago for making a political comment and stating that this was not the place for discussing these things. But since you're going on about one comment somebody made, then, I'm going to respond. I personally take offense to you labelling views that the economy is not strong as being leftist. I'm as far from a leftist as a person can be and I believe the economy is going in the wrong direction. I'm a business executive involved in packaging sales and I'm seeing manufacturing plants disappearing at an alarming rate due to free trade, NAFTA (signed into law by a democrat, Clinton), and outsourcing. These are developments I witness with my own eyes. If you think only leftists are harsh critics of the current administration take a look at The American Conservative magazine or Chronicles magazine. And by the way, unemployment numbers that are reported aren't as accurate as they used to be. During the Clinton administration it was decided that those that have given up looking for work are no longer counted among the unemployed. Now, let's get back to art talk. | ||
Anonymous |
Robert- Before the election, you were ticked off because someone was “Bush Bashing”. And you threatened to quite the discussion group. Now who’s talking politics? Knock it off and stick to art. PLEA | ||
jandrle |
When the art discussions become contentious this board is hard to take, when people begin to use it to promote their political views it becomes insufferable. Why not keep it a safe and welcoming place for EVERYONE to discuss art? | ||
Robert |
Ok--I was off topic regarding the debate on is the middle class disapprearing. Since that has been a political mantra among those who would have us believe a whole array of lies (repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it) I have decided, regradless of the personal cost, to call people on the blantant propaganda and untruths that are steering people away from reality. Here a few (lie: Bush Lied -- Fact bad intelligence from all of the world's intelligence agencies). A woman has a right to control her body (since when is a genetically different being inside of her "her" body). The economy is on the ropes--fact it is healthy: Today's yahoo news article: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The number of Americans applying for initial jobless claims plunged 36,000 last week, the largest drop in more than three years, the Labor Department said on Thursday, partially because of difficulties in calculating seasonal adjustments. New claims for state unemployment insurance benefits fell to 296,000, the lowest level since early February and the largest one-week drop since 73,000 in early December 2001, the department said. There are many many more. It's one thing to present different opinions, another to endorse outright untruths. I don't think we as thinking Amnericans should put up with all the untruhs spewing from the misguided left any longer. Including the one that goes; "The middle class is disappearing." | ||
Robert |
The middle class is disappearing sound like we are in Czarist Russia before the revolutions, or in Dickensian England at the time Marx wrote Das Capital. Or is the depression. This is not true. Middle class people may have less money to spend on toys that 10 years agoi but that's not the same sa the middle class shrinking. Yes there is a smallo percentage of poor and in some states a larger percentage of illegal alien poor but all you have to do is exist in America to see the middle class is firmly entrenched. Believe your eyes, not brainwashed leftist rhetoric. | ||
Anonymous |
I think it is nice to discuss things but often it does become political and debated wrongly and full of opinions and people taking offense to something said...think I will stick to art too...much nicer and more friendly. | ||
Eric |
She probably meant that the middle class is shrinking, not disappearing, which would mean that there won't be a middle class in the future. She's right, though, that currently the middle class is going through rough times. This isn't the place for politics though, even though I have a lot to say on the subject but would rather talk about art here. | ||
Eugene |
Robert, I use new gamboge (WN) because I grew up with it. My teacher/mentor (W. E. Heitland, AWS) used it so I did too. It has always worked OK for me, although my greens are probably mostly warm. I think most of natures greens are warm. Maybe it's just habit or the way I see things. I have zillions of unused colors in my paint box, and I'll admit that sometimes a little lemon yellow does find it's way into my palette. However,my palette as stated is the one I used most often. I also use the raw umber as a yellow to modify sap green, which I think is an awful color if not subdued with raw sienna, raw umber, new gamboge or burnt sienna. I'm an old guy and set in my ways. But thanks for suggesting the substitutes for alizarin, I'll try them. | ||
Robert |
I take exception to the statement "that the middle class is disappearing." This is patently not true. This makes it sound like there are a few aristocrats and starving millions. Americans enjoy an incredibly high standard of living, enough so that people from other countries sneak here here take advantage of the situation. Most of the country is "middle class." What is occuring is a lack of interest in the arts among the middle class--they have more important things to pay for (unless you are defining the middle class as the country club elite :>) The tastes of most americans does not go toward art, but video games and movies. But before we declare this the death knell of culture, remember that a typical video game production company employs lots of artists and writers as well as programmers. Maybe art is evolving into areas that will exclude traditional painters and poets, or relagate them to the coffe houses of Bohemia, but that doesn't mean that the new electronic arts do not require a lot of artistic talent. they do. | ||
Eric |
Robert, you're right about the reputation of watercolor because of fugitive pigments. But possibly the main thing that keeps watercolors in the "minor leagues" is glass. Some galleries won't sell a painting unless it's on canvas. | ||
Eshkenazi |
Robert - I do not disagree with you. If any artist is serious about making a difference in how watercolors are seen by the rest of the art world and art buying public, they have to address *every* aspect of the problem and not focus on just one. Exclusive focus on either educating people about watercolor as a medium so they see it as equal with other mediums or *just* phasing out fugitives is not going to help anything. Ignoring any part of the problem would be, as you say, "irresponsible" and most certainly counter productive. (I'm not making any accusations to any person) I hold to my statement that the mentality will not be changed by a simple war against fugitive paint. That's only one issue. Incidentally, my personal growing animosity toward that which is fugitive has more to do with the feeling of making sure buyers are getting paintings that will last. Regardless of whether or not the artist *thinks* people care how long their art lasts, they should assume that people do. Because in fact you don't know what someone is looking for and unless you post a big sign that says "This painting will fade in a few years" on your paintings, I feel that you should assume anyone buying it is purchasing something they intend to last for a long time. (Unless, of course, you don't sell your paintings. Ever. In that case I feel you can use whatever fugitive paints you want. No one will know but you.) Whether or not the rest of the world respects my medium doesn't matter to me (personally). But even if I never sell anything, I try to paint as thought I might. And if I do, I want my paintings to be as lightfast as possible...just in case. 'Tis my opinion. I hope it was coherent. | ||
Jane Freeman |
The economy has alot to do with it and also the fact that the middle class is disappearing. What is developing is people either have the money to buy the original or else, they do not and want to change things often, see no merit or collectablility in giclees and so are opting for the new poster looks and lower end prints. This I say not just from my impressions or opinions but from someone higher up within the industry itself. We will see more of these changes coming and much lower runs of prints from the companies. Remember how they would do thousnads...well now it is only a few hundred and that of course will hopefully drive the cost up and bring some kind of market back for art being reproduced. We will see. | ||
Robert |
Eskaenazi:"That mentality is not going to be changed just by waging war against all that is fugitive. " But to not address this issue and take a laisse faire attitude about it will certainly contribute to the acceptance of fugitive pigments. Will this in turn help the credibility of watercolor??? I think "waging war" on the use fugitives is a great place to start. The resistance to the use of lightfast pigments exclusively is hard to explain without recourse to terms such as "irresponsible." | ||
Eshkenazi |
Eugene - I don't do florals or still lifes but I do fantasy illustration (it's okay to throw things) and I have to say I'm often really tempted by some of the prettier colors. I remember looking through a Utrecht catalog, specifically at their watercolors because they always look so vibrant (I've never tried them so I don't know if it's really the color of the paint or just that they have a good printing process). But the last time I was drooling over them, I noticed several of the colors I was drooling over the most had 'NT' as the lightfast rating. :\ It's not a primary concern of mine but after reading here so much, I can't buy a fugitive color without feeling guilty. :( Also about Ebay - I've noticed that the likelihood of being able to sell an original there for the same price you would normally ask for it is pretty low. Most of the artists I know sell only prints there. Why do you think there's a 'slump' going on right now? Is it just part of the whole econmy slump or is there another reason do you think? | ||
Robert |
Oh Eugene--if you want a lightfast replacement for Aliz (other than quinacridone violet PV-19 more blue than alizarin) you might try perylene maroon (less blue). It makes a dead on deep black with pthalo green and is similar to alizarin in many respects. In fact, proabably the ideal way to replace alizarin is to use both perylene maroon and quinacridone violet. If you try it, you'll see why I'm saying this. Daler Rowney's permanent alizarin is a mixture of these 2 pigments. They also so such cool things separately. | ||
Robert |
Eugene-- Re: your palette--your yellows, new gamboge (I am assuming, since different brands emply different pigments, Winsor Newton) and raw sienna, are both on the "warm" side. Do you have any problems when you see a "cool" yellow of light green in nature? Do you just render the color "warmer" or are you able to reproduce the shade with these yellows? I am asking becaue I find myself wanting a similar pair of yellows but unable to mix certain sahes of light green. | ||
Suzy |
Yes, Jane, I see your point. The whole industry is in a slump right now. It's not surprizing that Hadley is too. In my industry, several of the big gift houses have gone under even though they have some big name artist in their stable. (I just heard that Silvestri/Westmore went under and they are the ones that are the big reps and producers of Karen Rossi. I am represented by the Van Group and they are getting tight on the purse strings too. All the major houses are dumping stuff in their warehouses to places like Ross, TJMax, etc. I can't believe how much stuff there is in the discount stores now. The place that does my rubberstamps is going under (PSX Designs) and dumping a lot of my stamps on ebay right now, even though they sell really well in the stores. I guess they figure its fast cash. | ||
Sid |
I've had strange experiences displaying my watercolors at shows. People keep coming in my booth and saying "It's so nice to see someone painting watercolors! I just love them!" Now, some of these people turn out to be watercolor painters themselves, (they are usually the ones who get "nose to nose" with the painting), but many are just regular art buyers. No one has ever said anything about glass, although I keep reading that it is a big deal for some people. Go figure! Maybe art buyers here in the north west are just not in the "main stream" or people who are "aquaphobic" just stay far away from my booth. | ||
Eugene |
In rereading my post it sounds like I do not believe in permanency. No so. It’s just that it’s not my prime concern. I use the following landscape palette. New Gamboge Permanent Rose Burnt Sienna Raw Sienna Raw Umber Ultramarine Blue Sap Green-- and sometimes Thalo Blue Cerulean Blue Thalo Green Alizarin Crimson I think all of these are reasonably permanent except for the alizarin, which I use only for mixing ultra darks. I think it fades mostly in tints and lighter shades. Remember this is a landscape palette. I can understand that flower and still life painters would be tempted to use many of the “pretty” more fugitive colors. | ||
Jane Freeman |
Hey Suzy!! Long time no see! No not negative that he is selling there but he is represented by Hadley House and if they were doing well, this would not be necessary...so obviously he is not selling well either or he would not be doing it this way is what I figure. If anyone has a following, it would be him and yet he is not selling his work in a gallery? Is it because it is a watercolor I have to ask? Or...could it be because there are so many prints running around that no one wants to have an original of a picture that is in so many places already. No idea...just some thoughts outloud! HA! Good to see you Suzy...hope life is treating you well! | ||
Suzy |
Hey Jane, Im just curious... I percieved a negitive note by your mention of Steve Hanks selling an original on Ebay. Can you explain why you disapprove. (Or did I read into that wrong?) Personally I have never sold any of my work on ebay but I would not be opposed to it. (Many of my manufactured product are sold there by different individuals and distributors) But a lot of money is traded over Ebay. My son bought a $15,000 car on ebay and my husband bought a $10,000 tractor! Although there is a lot of junk on ebay, there is a lot of junk in galleries too! Anxious for your comments Suzy | ||
Jane Freeman |
This is a discussion all the time at the Artcafe it seems...seems to come up many times a year along with other questions about watercolors vs oil etc...and yet most people who are taking classes or buying pigment are trying watercolors...go figure...do they think it is cheaper or why the move that direction? I believe it is because of the portablility so they can travel to workshops and abroad...not sure if it is taken seriously...as in the past it is often seen as the medium to do some sketching and preliminary work in before the "REAL" work begins... Is there a way to post websites here? I find it hard to take anyone serious until I can see their work for we could just be blowing smoke! HA! | ||
Eshkenazi |
Jane - I was about to type up a post that said almost exactly what you said. :) You beat me to it (and did a better job). Go you! :D I know when I first started painting a few years ago, Alizarin was listed in almost ever 'suggested palette' that I came across. Being a beginner, I didn't even realize that some colors were not lightfast (everytime I saw something that said 'fugitive' I wondered what that meant. It took a while for me to get around to looking it up and took even longer before I realized it was actually a serious thing. I didn't think it was really a big deal). Thinking about it now, I find it quite annoying. Why are all the (okay not all...but everything I read) 'How to' watercolor books still suggesting fugitive paints? Why are most of them not even addressing the issue of lightfastness? That is part of the problem with beginners. They don't know these things, they don't know to look for information on them and not many people bother to tell them. I also agree with what you said about how fading colors are not the only reason that people have less respect for watercolors as a medium. I think the canvas thing is a big deal. Also, when I first started painting with WC, a lot of people would sort of raise their eyebrows and say something like "You mean those little round pan things that we painted with in first grade?" Only recently have I started hearing "Isn't that supposed to be one of the hardest mediums to use?" (And this is from the average person, not someone who knows anything about art). To them, oil on canvas is art. Watercolor on a 'piece of paper' is just playing around. (Forget that the paper is freakin' expensive). That mentality is not going to be changed just by waging war against all that is fugitive. Unfortunately, I don't know how to change it. :\ (Dropping watercolor blocks on unsuspecting heads seems to help a little). :p | ||
Robert |
I agree except on one point--not all makers are actively trying to make lightfast pigments--Holbein's offerings are often fugitive even though they are marked by the company as permanent. And the fugitive colors are most often the "New" bight colors in the line. Check out the far right numbers on Handprint's pigment listings. If the numbers are low (2, 4) and in Red, the pigment is fugitive. You'll notice Holbein's numbers are red way too often, even in pigments with the word "permanent" in the title. Unless it's a traditional color like an erth or cadmium or ultramarine, I avoid Holbein. Also, I understand the newbies are going to use whatever looks pretty. However, when seasoned pros ignore lightfast ratings or project an attitude of "who cares" I am moved to comment--such practices and attitudes undermine the perception of watercolor in general and, when applied to sales of non-lightfast paintings, range from irresponsible to fraudulent behavior. | ||
Jane Freeman |
Robert, I do not disagree with you. I know the problem all too well about galleries and being taken seriously. I know that buyers prefer to buy oils, acrylic and pastels above watercolor. I do not know how we change that because it is not just the issue of permanency but also the glass that they do not like and also preceive paper as not permanent...they see canvas and think strong I belive. I have tried the watercolor canvas and was not too happy with it for how I paint. I really think that allpaint makers are striving to have more permanent, light-fast paints and I think perhaps it takes letters from artists to make them see that that is what we want and then by purchasing only those that are lightfast we also make a statement. But with Americans taking more watercolor workshops and classes than ever before, we have an upsurge of novice painters who just want paint for practice so therefore we who are professionals will have to make our own determinations and live with it. I wish there was a way to make the public see how difficult watercolors are and that what we do has great lasting ability...I think when they see some artists hang paintings with the paper still warped etc, they see it as messy and unsightful and again think more along the lines of a non-techical work. It will take more and more education. When Paul Jackson sold Manhattan Tapastry for $250,000 I thought maybe the change had begun but now I see even Steve Hanks tries to sell originals on Ebay...something is amiss in our world that will never be corrected. People will always preceive our work as "less than" oils. That is my fear and I hope I am wrong for all our sakes because I do not want to work in anyother medium. Thank goodness for SPLASH series books etc that make the public more aware. | ||
Robert |
Darn it--Such a limited palette one orange yellow is just too difficult to capture a variety of effects and moods. I think my limnited palette below is inadequate. | ||
Robert |
Riddle me this--If permanence is not a serious issue, why have watercolor makers (save Holbein) struggled for the last 20 years to find lightfast pigments to replace the fugitive ones, which traditionally included a whole bunch of famous fugitive colors? It is understandable if an isolated prson doesn't care about lightfastness, but if this remained true for the watercolor community as a whole, then watercolors would nevr be taken seriously as lasting art. I understand the attitude of playfulness necessarily to produce paintings--to be uptight and overly serious about the painting process is to court inhibition and poor work--but that should not be confused with taking seriously what we do--which is produce art that should be seen as equal to the traditionally permanent media. One thing stopping watercolor from ascending to a higher degree of collectabilty in the eyes or galleries, museums, and serious collectors is the repuatation that watersolors fade. But they don't any more (or shouldn't). They can be made lightfast. To not care whether one paints with lightfast paints is an individual choice, but individual choices are what make up more general trends, and in the face of the abundance of current lightfast pigments, to paint with fugitive paints is to define watercolor as a fading medium that is not to be taken seriously. | ||
Jane Freeman |
I paint for national shows as well and I notice alot of national painters do not worry too much about if it is fugitive or not but rather just that they like the color. I try to keep things as permanent as I can as I still want those who purchase my work to be happy. I have seen one painting where all the paint faded and what stands out are the magic marker lines she used! It really looks bad now and that was in less than 20 years. So I try to be careful as I would not want a bad name nor to charge someone money for something that is not going to last. However, that said, I saw someone purchase an abstract that was done with used coffee filters and coffee stains and of course, that being acidic is going to be gone in just a few years and it did not seem to bother the person who purchased it! HA! I just cannot understand that one! | ||
Eugene |
Personally, I doubt if anyone who buys one of my paintings gives a damn if it lasts beyound his or her lifetime. I don't lose any sleep over fugitive colors. I guess that says something about the importance of my work! Although I've had many pieces accepted in national shows, I know that my watercolors will be forgotten soon after I'm gone. I paint because I enjoy it and I believe there is a danger in becoming too serious about it. | ||
Thom |
Thus, as this applies to watercolors, nothing is permanent? In the cosmic scheme fo things it doesn't matter whether the pigment last 5 years (opera) or 500 (cadmium Yellow). It will all eventually be gone. I guess the Tibetan Monks have it right--spend years making a sand painting and then wipe it away when it is completed. Still if I "sell" a painting painting with known fugitive pigments I wouldn't be able to live with myself. | ||
Thom |
I hope Yellowstone N.P. erupts in the winter during a high snowmobile day! | ||
Suzy |
Do I detect a sense of humor??? Very Funny! | ||
Robert |
Don't hang any paintings within 1000 miles of yellowstone national park. It sits on a super volcano that erupts every 650,000 years. Each eruption destroys everything for 1000 miles. The next eruption is overdue. The bottom of yellowstone lake has become convex, suggesting rising magma under pressure. Looks like it's about to blow. Some theorize the explosion could make humanity extinct due to the nuclear winter effect. Buddha says that the very nature of existence is "anicha"--impermanence, and that is in clinging to impermanent thingsand wishing them to be permanent that we experience suffering. Thus, like Buddha, we should embrace and accept the impermanent. Yellowstone's about to blow anyway. Opera anyone? |
