| Author | Message | ||
  LunaTiger |
Hi Eugene I LOOOOOVE hooker's green!!! I am planning to do a dragon in hooker's green but mostly I use it in my nature and fanatsy paintings. I also think it's a great color for painting oceans or little forestpuddles/-lakes (not sure what it's called, sorry) mixed with mostly blue and yellow. | ||
Lisa |
FWIW Pthalocyanine green mixed with earth colors produces much the same greens as Sap green mixed with earths since the earths are forms of yellow anyway-- [in other words pthalo plus more yellow vs pthalo plus yellow (ie sap) plus yellow is about the same thing] Pthalocyanine green additionally can make rich darks with any violet red, somehthing sap is unable to do. | ||
Eugene |
Marie, I use only W/N Raw Umber. I once tried a tube of DaVinci, but threw it away because it was a completely different color. I haven't tried any others, so I can't make any judgements. | ||
marie |
Eugene, which brand of raw umber do you prefer? I have noticed a lot of variation across manufacturers. | ||
marie |
" I like anything that makes painting easier for me." Amen to that. The first question I ask myself when I am choosing a palette is: "what color do I have to use a lot, and what is the easiest way to mix it." I do figures more than landscapes, so I am usually more concerned with how I am going to get flesh colors than how to mix green. Most of my palette is keyed around trying to get flesh colors with minimal fuss and maximum flexiblity --- which for me usually means starting out with a yellow earth pigment and adjusting from there. I recall once trying to do a figure painting using nothing but benzamidazalone yellow, quinacridone rose, and thalo blue. It took *forever* to get to a color that looked vaguely human. The mixture would start out bright orange, and when I would try to adjust it, it would turn purple -- or green. What I would intend as a tiny adjustment would make the color change wildly. I eventually wound up with some convincing flesh colors, but I spent more time messing around on the palette than working on the painting. Having said all of that, I still believe that there is value in distinguishing between single pigment paints and convenience paints, and in knowing the difference between pigments and marketing names, and in understanding the handling characteristics of single pigments. Most importantly, though, I believe in using whatever works. Blacks and convenience greens are all okay in the proper context. | ||
Eugene |
In defense of the so-called convenience colors. I know you can mix almost any color using only the primaries, but I like anything that makes painting easier for me. So I use sap green, the only green on my palette. -- but never straight from the tube. My painting style favors warm greens so I mix the sap with Burnt umber, burnt sienna, raw sienna, or my favorite raw umber. I seldom use blue-green except occasionally for a cast shadow on grass. So I don’t even have pthalo green on my palette. Why bother mixing three colors,- Pthalo, yellow, and raw umber,- when I can get the same thing by mixing only two- sap and raw umber? I want to emphasize, that “sap” works for me. It may not be right for everyone, especially if you like blue-greens. Another controversial color is black. I paint a lot of black and white holstein cows, and yes I use black, generally warmed a little with burnt sienna. Comments please | ||
edejan |
I have to chime in on some of the controversial comments made earlier in this discussion. I have found to my dismay that it is indeed "quite easy to misread another person on the internt." I don't think we can judge a person's intent in making a comment purely by its written form. Some people write very objectively which might seem cold or very subjectively which might seem critical but neither may truly reflect the emotional tone in which the comment was conceived. I have seen members of other groups become very vindictive over written messages which were well-intentioned but misinterpreted, occasionally leading to the break up of the group. This discussion forum is too informative and interesting, and there are so many interesting and creative members. Let's try to keep it collegial!! | ||
edejan |
I find it interesting that you mention Phthalo green. Many years ago when I was a student, pthalo green is the only one I was aware of. After a painting hiatus of many years, I return to find many greens, but rarely see phthalo green listed in catalogs or mentioned in artists' demonstrations or magazine articles. I always found it a very useful, mixable and dependable pigment. I have recently become aware that Cheap Joe has a phthalo green listed as Joe's green. I have to try it. As far as Hooker's, viridian, sap - green is my favorite color and I can always find a way to mix a pleasing shade but I do miss good old Phthalo green!! | ||
sarita |
I agree with Eric, this discussion board is a treasure for beginners. This is where I first heard about Handprint. Bruce (handprint) has taken the quess work out of purchasing new pigments. If he says avoid a pigment - I do! If he states a particular quality of a pigment - I take note. Bruce has saved me not only time but a ton of money. I have come to appreciate both Bruce Robert's sage advice on brushes, paints, and paper. Robert - I welcome your opinion any time. | ||
Eric |
I'm in favor of MORE information, not less. Zoe, don't assume everyone knows about Handprint. Some who find this discussion group are beginning artists who know very little. I find nothing wrong with Robert's point about hooker and phthalo. It's okay to to expand upon somebody's question. | ||
Robert |
You did nothing but introduce a topic... no fault. I agree--what works for you ... works. Happy painting, Eugene. | ||
Eugene |
Thank all of you for the comments and info. But really, I didn't intend to stir up a (green) hornet's nest. So, on with the show. I'll probably try Hooker's but I'll most likely continue to use mostly Sap, which suits my needs by mixing and modifying.-- The one you are most used to usually works best. | ||
Robert |
Zoe--I am going to post your comment so that I can respond to it: " Actually, Robert, I find you more than pompous, more than offensive and you more often than not hijack threads with your POV." First, a internet thread naturally evolves such as this one. My post on using pthalo was a logical extension of a discussion on Hooker's. I didn't have much to say in response to Eugenes question about use of Hooker's. As you pointed out, I didn't remain silent but posted my opinion that pthalo is the basuis of hookers etc. This is what happens--the expansion of the topic. Secondly, I welcome all opinions and learn from them. I post mine and welcome others to do the same. Since you know this, why not avoid my posts if you find them irritating? Thirdly, The offerings of information is never hijacking a thread. To make it about the personalities of the people is. Would others be more put off by my opinions of pthalo green in a thread on Hooker's or by your name calling? Which is actually off topic? Fourth--I never said a bad word or condescending word to Eugene--who I have really come to love--as much as you can on a newsgroup. Lastly, You are quite confident that you know my soul. You don't. But that is understandable . It is hard to judge another's true character from internet dicussions--I think it is a mistake to even try. Let me give in an example. In the previous thread on black I offered various ways to mix black--I wasn't asked but was unsure what form of black you were asking about so I took it upon myself to think of how I mix black and posted it--to increase the repository of information here, Your resonse was: ZOE:" Thanks for your replys. Maria your work is beautiful and that touch of black is well used from my POV. I was really asking only about tube black not how we can all make darks, but I appreciate your recipes, Robert." I took this as it was posted and thought you were thanking me for my receipes and opinions and appreciated them and in was partly because of this encouragement that I posted my receipe for Hooker's (pthalo plus yellow). Now you tell me you don't want me to inject receipes and opinions and call me names in the process. What am I to make of this blantanly contradictory behavior. Are you that prone to 180 degree reversal from one minute to the next/ I acted on your warm thanks and did it again and i get insulted. Who does that? Who does that? Perhaps you were being sarcastic when you earlier thanked me? Why be sarcastic to others who are trying to be helpful? I don't get it. Evidently that you were being sarcastic in the first post where your said you appreciated my input was sarcasm but I misread it. It is quite easy to misread another person on the internt. Lastly, I thank you for trying to keep this newsgroup focused on watercolor and the level of discourse civil. | ||
jdaneman |
Maybe Robert's answer was more technical--but I found it helpful. I used to use Grumbacher Hooker's Green before the quins were invented and it was a very natural green. Now I find it is a mixed green, can be garish or unnatural and I mix my greens. The key word "convenience" green and the list of mfg is useful--if you find a Hk green you like, use it. But there is no consistency in the color--it's a traditional name that could mean anything. The bottom line--find a brand you like. If you don't like what you got, return it or auction the tubes off on Ebay. I don't use it anymore, from anyone, myself, and I found the greens from AJ here are bright but ultimately funny looking for landscapes in a natural mode. I use Prussian Blue or now Phtalo and mix in raw sienna to make my greens. --Joanna | ||
Zoe |
Actually, Robert, I find you more than pompous, more than offensive and you more often than not hijack threads with your POV. Goodnight. | ||
Robert |
Zoe--I find the discussion of personalities pointless. You don't know me and i don't know you. We are here to share information about watercolor. In a nut shell--hooker's green can be mixed with pthalo and a dab of mid-yellow. That's really my whole point. If you find that position somewhat offensive and pompous, what i am I supposed to think about you hijacking this thread to make it about personalities. Let's stick to watercolor topics. | ||
Robert |
What i thought i said was that Hooker's is merely pthalo plkus a yellow. If you have Hooker's on your palette or if your pthalo on your palette -- either way-- you have an intense green that needs to be toned down, so having hooker's or having pthalo amounts to about the same thing except that it is hard to make pthalo from hookers but easy to make hookers from pthalo. Beyond that you still have to add other colors to make usable greens. This is information. Pure and simple. It is information that is more or less widely known because most of my teachers have passed this (use pthalo becasue that is what all of the greens are made from anyway) along to me. I'm just passing along information, Zoe, just passing along information. | ||
Zoe |
At the risk of offending you, Robert, I would like to say the question I saw posted by Eugene was have you had experience with hooker's green. It makes it really hard for me to want to ask a colour question here without getting a lecture (from you) on what to like or not like and how to mix it another way. I find it frustrating and presumptuous on your part to put yourself in the seat of the expert. It would be so much more convivial if you'd say in your opinion, or your experience rather than state opinion as fact time and again, sometimes retracting your statements days or weeks later. I apologize to you and the group, but I feel compelled to at least let you know that it does not make it appealing to post any questions related to colour choices, mixing, blending, or otherwise. And also it is not necessary, IMO, to quote from handprint. It is the rare watercolourist that doesn't know this site and hasn't read it or perused it at length. And lastly, it also seems somewhat condescending to Eugene, a man of experience, and a fine painter to tell him what he may know and not need to know. Have a good weekend, or what is left of it. | ||
marie |
I second Zoe's opinion on the M. Graham hooker's green, a lovely deep green that is never garish. It makes nice darks, and is sometimes useful for neutralizing and darkening flesh mixtures. It's the only convenience green I ever use. I tend to work very quickly and find that pure thalo green gets out control too easily for me. I like idea of using a green that's starts out a little subdued. | ||
Robert |
Hooker's is merely pthalo green plus a smaller amt. any yellow. Add more yellow you get sap. Add mostly yellow and a bit of red and you get Olive. This is essentially how the maufacturers do it. The yellows employed vary from lemon, to new gamboge to quinacriodone gold depending on the maunfacturer. No matter what green you want, you are probably going to have to modify the green on your palette with another color to get the hue you want. Whether you start with pthalo or hookers you will still go thru to same process. So why bother having a bunch of greens when you have to mix them anyway. A squirt of pthalo or viridian may be all you really need. I like the way viridian handles. Here's handprint's take on hookers: "HOOKER'S GREEN. The origin of the name is obscure. This color was originally mixed from iron blue (PB27) and genuine gamboge (NY24; use anthrapyrimidine yellow (PY108) as the closest modern equivalent to gamboge), but the proportional mixture of the two pigments apparently varied from one manufacturer to the next. As a result, there is a fuzzy color precedent (apart from the Winsor & Newton and Rowney paint catalogs and proprietary recipes) for locating the color within the span from yellow to middle green. In any case, modern "hooker's green" paints seem to fall into two basic types. Some, such as Winsor & Newton hooker's green (listed under PG36 below) or Daniel Smith hooker's green are moderately intense yellow greens with hue angle around 140, intended to imitate the mixed green color; in keeping with modern tastes, however, these are much more saturated than the historical paint. Other paints, such as M. Graham hooker's green or MaimeriBlu hooker's green, are duller and darker, also at around hue angle 140, and apparently mixed to match the fugitive green pigment (nitroso iron complex, PG8) that became associated with the name. A few companies offer two versions of the color ("light" and "deep") instead of a permanent green; in the Rowney Artists paints the yellow pigment fades rather quickly, leaving a residual color of blackish green. As a dark valued paint made primarily of phthalo green pigment, hooker's greens tend to show a very large drying shift, lightening and losing saturation by as much as 30%. The best mixing complement is dioxazine violet (PV23). Hooker's greens are much more natural looking than permanent green and were a standby for 19th century landscape and botanical painters. Modern paints normally have a rich, dark tonal value that provides a great range in color mixtures from masstone through undertone, and the color represents a convenient "middle green" that can be warmed or cooled without much loss of saturation." | ||
Zoe |
Hi Eugene, Hope you are well. I have M. Graham's Hooker's green and it is quite a nice colour. Nice for landscape and a reasonably good mixer. Although it does seem out of fashion, it was recommended in several of the landscape books I own so I bought a tube to try. Not sorry. | ||
ben |
hookers green is a subdued green like pine and olive, or jucca when diluted not yellowgreen or blueish green you can mix it from sap green, and a little bit of blue (easy) mix it from iron blue (classic) or phtalo blue and a warm yellow pigment (this is the hard way) or start with a warm yellow pigment and add a phtalo green (tiny bits at a time) (scarlet or orange works too, depending on how -not-bright you want your hookers green) you can buy pre-mixed hookers green in a tube, and use it as a "convenience green" to start all sorts of green mixtures (instead of Phtalo green BS ;-) for foliage, landscape etc, you start with this green and add yellows (and/or water), then you do not end up with artificial bluegreens, or unnatural bright greens or you add ultramarine blue (and a lot of water) for distant mountains, forest etc hookers greens in tubes vary between brands some are too bright for me I do not use it anymore, although some have a beautifull color | ||
Eugene |
Has anyone had any experience with hookers green? It used to be a very popular color but I don't hear much about it anymore. |
