| Author |
Message |
 
greg
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 9:29 am: |  |
Thanks for the wonderful insight. You are a valuable asset to this forum. We will all grow because of your dedication and love of art. |
Robert
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 9:10 am: | |
I'd buy your book, marie. |
tachee
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 7:38 am: | |
marie, you have impressed the heck out of me! here i sat thinking about warm/cool shadows and you just up and do tests. with diagrams! impressive. and the woman can paint, too. |
marie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:06 pm: | |
I just did an experiment.
First, I took two pieces of construction paper, orange and green, and held them between my light source and a white sheet of paper. (I had to put a piece of cardboard behind the construction paper to prevent the light from shining through the paper.) The shadow cast by the paper was neutral, with no evidence of the green or the orange reflecting onto the white paper.
Second, I moved the construction paper so that it faced the light and then put the cardboard between my light and the white paper. The shadow cast by the cardboard contained lots of green and orange light cast from the colored paper.
Here is a crude diagram of what I did. The top diagram, with the colored paper in the middle, cast a neutral shadow. The bottom diagram, with the colored paper reflecting back, had a colorful shadow.
 |
marie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 6:13 pm: | |
>> Does it not also make a diference on what type of shadow on the face? It makes perfect sense to me that a warm shadow would be cast on a warm surface.
I'm not sure I understand.
>Does a cool object cast a
>cool shadow on a warm surface?
I think a cool object would cool off the warm surface some because there would be some light reflecting from the cool surface.
I'm going to go grab an egg from the fridge and experiment |
greg
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 5:48 pm: | |
Does it not also make a diference on what type of shadow on the face? It makes perfect sense to me
that a warm shadow would be cast on a warm surface.
IE: nose casting on cheek. I think the reflected
blue light under the chin from the models shirt
could be a warm violet-blue? I am going to practice
warm faces.
Does a cool object cast a cool shadow on a warm surface?
Say a person is wearing a blue hat, 1/2 of face is in shadow from the lid, cool shadow over face correct? |
marie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 5:29 pm: | |
Robert asked in an earlier post how I deal with shadows, and I didn't give a very articulate explanation.
I usually think of the the shadow as being whatever ambient light is left over without the main light source. I think of it as a combination of whatever ambient light is reflected from the main light source, the light from any secondary light sources (such as a window), and the light that is reflecting off nearby objects.
If I am in a closed room with white walls and only one light source (which almost never happens), then my shadows would be exactly the same hue as the subject in light -- I would just make the shadow darker. More often, however, my main light source is a warm, incandescent light, and I get some secondary window light, which is much cooler, and so I will add a little blue or violet into the mix. I try to be careful, however, to make sure that the overall shadow stays within the warm range, even if only barely. If it's a night scene and all the light sources are warm, then I avoid the blue in the shadows. If I make the shadows really bright, then the painting will get a very theatrical/carnival feel.
There are also a few things I avoid when I'm painting faces.
* I try to keep the shadows under the chin and jaw warm, especially with female models, regardless of what I think the actual light is. I recall once trying to capture some of the reflected light from a female model's blue shirt, and I wound up making her look like she had a 5 o'clock shadow. Not good.
* I try to make the area under the top eyelid cool. When the shadows under the eye get too warm, the model looks possessed -- as if he belongs in a bad horror movie.
* I use warm shadows around the ear and the tip of the nose.
* |
Eugene
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 5:55 pm: | |
MARIE-
They're wonderful. Easy to see they are painted from life, not
from photos. I think painting from a model forces us to paint
fast and take risks. And that's what makes paintings exciting
and different. |
marie
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:45 am: | |
Thanks for all the nice comments. I'm still learning ... and I hope I'll still be learning 20 years from now. John, I especially appreciate the comment about Sargent. I pretty much worship Sargent, and it was Sargent's watercolors that got me interested in the medium.
And, Greg ... checks are gladly accepted. :) |
marie
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:23 am: | |
Shadows are a perennial challenge for me with figures. I generally prefer them on the warm side, even though I might include some smaller passages of cool shadows. When I completely flip the temperature from the light side to the dark side, the results look strange. Other people may be able to do it, but I can't.
My challenge is that I want my shadows to be dark, warm, and somewhat saturated all at the same time. I want all three, and I can't have all three. I have to make choices, and I have never quite settled on a consistent way of doing it. |
greg
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:53 am: | |
Awesome Marie. I love them. I really like the belly dancer, I can feel the movement when I look at it.
thanks for all of the great tips as well. It is
nice to know this can still be a forum where advice
can be given...NOW...where do I mail the check...
:) |
John Preston
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:45 am: | |
Dittos,
I'm reminded of certain male figure studies by Sargent. They have that quality of drawing with the brush that shows so well in this medium. |
Eric
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:38 am: | |
Marie, those are incredible. You've taken advantage of the unique things watercolor can do. I like the use of white paper for light values. And I like the vignette approach. The quick sketch is beautiful in its simplicity. When they say watercolor is like golf (fewer strokes wins) that's a good example. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:45 pm: | |
Marie--re-shadows--you seem to be saying to keep them to the warm side (ie--avoid bluies and greens).
I know blues tend to move forward in portraits so i have been using muted violets (ie neutralizing my lit flesh tones with violet for the shadows. Of course it is more complex than that and i have to study the model and vary the hies a lot, but I do understand that blues sometimes refuse to recede--have you had that experience? |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:28 pm: | |
Marie-- As I mentioned, after all these years, I am just starting to get serious about portrait painting and your style--loose yet precise (very paradoxical) and very fresh--amazes me--(I would like to adopt it as a sort of persoanl goal or standard to shoot for). I think there is very confident drawing behind this based on hundreds of hours of live model drawing. Hats off for outstanding work. |
marie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:32 pm: | |
Eugene here are some examples of my work. I don't do portraits per se. Sometimes I get a likeness, sometimes I don't.
This one was an exercise in simplifying and sustaining values. It happens to be a good likeness as well. My palette was yellow ochre, burnt sienna, ultramarine blue, and cad. red.
I wasn't especially happy with this painting of a belly dancer, but it has done well in shows. I had a lot of trouble with getting the skin tone dark enough. I would handle things much differently now.
This is a quick sketch, but I'm very fond of it. I do a lot of these, and they sell well.
And one more ... another exercise in simplifying values. The color is wrong on the picture -- the original is much nicer.
 |
Dake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:24 pm: | |
I think someone here is either sufferng from a personality disorder of the narcisistic type or bipolar disorder, manic phase.
The grandiosity of this person is inappropriate for this forum, mostly due to it's distracting nature. One can't help but be drawn into considering the motives for obvious asocial interaction. I come here for the interest of art not to be amazed at personalities. However I leave shaking my head.
To the one concerned; you are a false artist unless yo can prove otherwise.
Your words are almost worthless and will continue to decline in value with each heady utterance. I would not buy a book by you if my life depended on it.
As John Keats said in a letter BR Haydon in 1817:
"There is no greater Sin after the 7 deadly than to flatter oneself into an idea of being a great Poet" |
Eric
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:30 pm: | |
Marie- Great info. I'm not a portrait painter, but it seems like very good information. You're very generous.
Speaking of portraits, I noticed that somebody that used to post here fairly regularly, Carrie Stuart Parks, has at least two books out on drawing faces. Haven't read them, just casually flipped through them at the bookstore.
Yeah, Robert, you got suckered...but I loved reading your posts.
Linda, I might be wrong, but I'm going to go ahead and speak for everyone that reads this message board and say we're all skeptical about your world's greatest portrait artist ("that you know of") boast. |
Eugene
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 6:30 pm: | |
MARIE
Thanks for all your info. I don’t do portraits, but more and more
I’m including figures in my landscapes. I think they add a little
human interest. And they ARE a challenge. I like your posts
because they are always full of information. not just idle chit-
chat and bickering.
However, I enjoy reading all the posts. The humor and all!
Keep ‘em coming, They make my day.
Could you post some of your portrait work? And I wish
others would post their work too. We can jabber and jabber, but
a pic is worth a thousand words.
For Linda and Robert--- Valentines Day is over, You can knock
off the Sweeties And Darlings. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 12:15 pm: | |
I want to withdraw my comments to "Linda" I made earlier--all of them. Apologies to this forum for getting sucked in, hook line and sinker. I will stop feeding the troll. It only now occured to me that I was interacting with an internet troll. No more of that, I promise. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 12:00 pm: | |
Linda -- you may be the exception in scanning though the entire board everytime--one can't even tell what year Feb 18 is posted in by scrolling.
Why is that if person A posts "I am the world's greatest artist and will not share information because I want to charge for" and person B calls them on it, person B has the problem?
Textbook narcissism. |
marie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:54 am: | |
I generally use raw umber as the yellow in darker skin tones. As the skin becomes darker, I tend to go choose less saturated and warmer yellows. I sort of step from cadmium yellow pale for fair skinned models to yellow ochre or raw sienna for average skin tones to a darker ochre (the prismacolor raw sienna or D/S brown ochre) for olive complexions or light-skinned african americans to raw umber for dark skin.
My reds tends to lean more toward the orange side as the skin becomes darker. This is true regardless of ethnicity. I may go as far as quinacridone rose for a very translucent, fair complexion. I will go more toward a cadmium red for ruddier, outdoor complexions.
The cool color really depends on my mood and what I see on the model.
Of course, you don't have to use different pigments for different skin tones, but I find it easier to vary the pigments a bit according to the situation.
By the way, I learned something very useful about darker skin tones a few weeks ago. One of the challenges for me has been that I want to get the dark value but I also want to keep some of the warmth and richness. My inclination was always to try to put on thicker paint and maintain the saturation. I would tend to put on the paint so thick that it would dry blotchy. Argghhh. I have now learned that it's better to start with a light wash -- even with a dark skinned model -- and then charge lots of pigment into the wet paper |
Linda
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:09 am: | |
Robert said many don't take the time to scroll down and search. I do, and then I leave. I read and answer only the threads that appeal to me; however I can help I do. I learn much from the treasures of information I find placed there by people who love this stuff. Then you won't hear from me for years, if my last absence is any indication. Currently I'm about halfway down the list and continuing. I consider myself a regular!
Consider well when you open another thread.
Consider how you feel if I should speak harshly, or gently.
Kukana's (or Suzy's) "voice" I have found to be uplifting and enlightening in nearly every single post. Suzy, you are an excellent example to many, my friend! Thank you for your love of this stuff! |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:00 am: | |
Wow --Thanks Marie. I saw the Hogarth book and the illustrations appear to be more disigned for comics, though the proportion info is very good.
How do you approach dark skin tones (non-caucasian)? |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:57 am: | |
Linda relied to roberet "for I should be paid for the advice, I should write a book on the topic. I will keep your questions topmost in my mind, since you are the first to have asked !any good questions at all!"
Linda, I've thought about this comment and it does make sense. And since, if your know your Plato, the question in more important than the answer,I expect to be financially compensated if you use these questions in your book or if you supply information that answers these questions.
Terry--please delete my post of questions for Linda. They are too valuable to share. |
marie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:55 am: | |
I am far from being the world's greatest. However, I spend a lot of time painting people in watercolor; I teach classes about it (and they are usually wait-listed), I win awards for it, and I sell a lot of it. Folks in this group have been so helpful about sharing information that maybe this is an opportunity for me to share back a little.
Here are some of my experiences and recommendations. (By the way, I paint very quickly and very minimally; I am not the photorealistic type.)
* Learn to draw the head before you worry about portraits. Get a skull -- a plastic one from a medical supply house -- and study the bones. Find a good anatomy reference. Also, get a copy of one Bridgeman books.
* When you're drawing the head, worry about getting the shape of the head right. Concentrate on big shapes -- the cheek bone, the front and side planes of the forehead, and the eye socket. Make sure you make the cranial cavity big enough, and, if you have a 3/4 or profile view, make sure you don't cut off the back of the head. If you get all that right, the features will usually take care of themselves.
* Don't obsess over features. The eyes and mouth and such are psychologically important and people will often try to paint them first, without any regard for anything else about how they relate to the head. Instead, worry about features last.
* Draw/paint from life every chance you get. Even if you produce your final work from a photograph in the studio, you should do your initial studies from life. The eye can see so much more than the camera can see.
On to some of Robert's excellent questions:
* For proportion, I make sure that the eye is about at the midpoint of the face. Other than that, I just pay close attention to what I see; other rules my jump into my head from time to time. There's a good book, Drawing the Human Head by Burne Hogarth. It's full of all sorts of tips on proportion and such. The drawings in the book aren't especially to my liking, but the information is extremely useful.
* For flesh tones, any combination of red, yellow, and blue (or sometimes green) mixed to create a dull orange will work. Some combinations, though, are easier than others. Most of the time I use a lot of W/N Yellow Ochre or Raw Sienna, M. Graham Cadmium Red Light, and cobalt or cerulean blue. For yellows, I have used everything from W/N Cad. Yellow Pale to a raw umber. I haven't had much luck with burnt umber. For reds, I have used a wide range -- from quinacridone rose to winsor red to a cadmium scarlet. I could go on about this for a long time ... let me know if you want more details.
Basically, I will mix a very pale wash with my red and yellow on the palette, which I use for the initial wash. Then, I charge in pure color -- red, yellow, blue -- onto the wet paper.
* Which pose works best for me? I don't have any particular preference. Each type of pose has its pitfalls. With frontal views, there's a tendency for everything to flatten out, so you will want to make sure the lighting is good. With a 3/4 view, you want to make sure that you don't include too much of the side of the face that's turned away from you. It's very tempting to want to show all the features even when you can't see them --- e.g. -- "I know that person has two eyes, so I'm going to draw both of them even if only one is visible." With a profile view, there is a tendency to cut off the back of the head.
* How to handle hair? It's important to think of it as a solid mass, even though that's not how you would paint it. Keep the same, big concept of light and dark that you use for the rest of the head. After that, I usually get a little wild with the hair. I tend to do hair wet-in-wet.
* What size brush? I use the biggest brush I can handle without having to choke up on the ferrule. When I start choking up on the ferrule, I move to a smaller brush. Big sable rounds are my friends. I haven't had much luck with flats when painting heads.
* Shadows? I'm still playing around a lot with shadows. A lot depends on the type of lighting. I usually take a heavier concentration the same pigment that I use for the light area and then dull it down some --- and I don't really have a formula for how I dull it down. I almost certainly use some of whatever my cool pigment is. Sometimes I am very fond of ultramarine violet -- is darkens/dulls while still maintaining some warmth in the shadow; it also handles well in washes. Sometimes I like perylene maroon -- oops, I think there was a discussion of that in another thread.
* Background color? Once again, I don't have a set formula. It kind of depends on what I want to pull forward or force to recede. Also, I use the background to balance off other parts of the composition. Usually I try to merge part of the head with the background. Usually, my background is less saturated that the foreground. Sometimes I will put in a cool background, especially when the face wash is a little blotchy. Recently, I have started doing the background before I do the rest of the head, and that works well.
* Do I strive for extreme contrast or middle value? It really depends on the pose. I generally try to err on the side of extreme contrast. I like to leave some of the face as white paper, if I can. It tends to make things more dramatic. Also, sometimes I have trouble articulating narrow ranges of middle values.
* Compositional issues? That may be a topic for another thread, another day. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:50 am: | |
Linda, sweetie pie, I'd probably learn a lot just looking at your masterpieces. If you feel that your ideas are too valuable to share with this forum, if you feel that we should pay for the privledge of sitting at your feet as you expound, you should post your paintings and offer a workshop. If the art is good as you prolaim (I have no doubt whatsoever that it is), I'd consider attending, so long as you insist that I address you as "your highness" and prostrate myself before you during your demos. I find it hard to learn unless I grovel at the same time. |
tachee
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:25 am: | |
i really cannot imagine a worse fate- that of having to paint portraits. |
Linda
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:46 am: | |
Oh, my darling, how I wish to answer every intelligent question you have asked (they are all wonderful!), but, my dear, I have been told by a great one in art that I am not to give away any more secrets, for I should be paid for the advice, I should write a book on the topic. I will keep your questions topmost in my mind, since you are the first to have asked !any good questions at all!
Oh, how it hurts to have to keep "secret" when I feel information should be shared freely to all who would put it to good use. I know you all would, here on this forum. Alas, our society has a thing called money, which we have created "a need" for in order to survive here. Wish it weren't so. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:25 am: | |
Oh BTW Linda I am being a little tongue in cheek playing along with the 'world's greatest' fun--but sincerely, I can tell from your other posts that you are very good at explaining things and very passionately involved in painting. I am very srious about wanting to learn your approach to portraiture, since I consider myself a beginner in this area. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:01 am: | |
Linda asked we post watercolor portraiture tips in a previous thread--trouble is that thread is 1/2 a decade old and most people, including me, don't reguarly take the time to scroll down and search so here is a thread for Linda to put all of her promised tips. She is the world's greatest portrait artist (I actually haven't seen her work but I fully and uncritically accept her word on this--otherwise why would she proclaim it). So here are the things I would like for you to address, Linda (or any other lesser portrait painter):
Do you use photos or have the model sit live?
What proportional blocking method do you use to ensure the proportions are correct?
For the flesh tones, do you use primaries mixed on paper or do you mix up a flesh color?
What pose seems to work best for you--straight on, 3/4? etc.
In handling the hair, do paint it as blocks of color or strand by strand so to speak)?
Do you use a large brush or work with a detail brush (ie do you take the painterly approach or the photorealistic approach?)
How do you color facial shadows? What priciples do you rely on to color shadows?
Do you depict peripheral areas of the form with the same detail or less?
How do you do the background color?
Do you strive for extreme value contrast for drama or keep things mid value? If you do use extreme darks in the background, how do you mix and apply them (I have found this aspect troublesome in portrait backgrounds)
Finally, do you allow the subject to touch the corners of the paper or to sit in the middle surrounded by background completely (ie, please discuss principles of composition).
Thanks in advance. |
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