| Author |
Message |
 
Robert
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |  |
It strikes me as being a desaturated ultramarine, essentially. So an ultramarine with a touch of, say, raw umber would produce essentially the same color. The result of mixing pthalo green and quinacridone violet, I suspect, would be the same as indantrone. I ask because David Drrummond's 5 color palette is Indanthrone, Burnt Sienna, Cad Yellow, Quinacridone Magenta, and thalo Blue. That's it! |
marie
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:50 pm: | |
Indanthrone blue is not a regular part of my palette. Its huge drying shift is a bit much for me. |
Robert
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 7:22 pm: | |
I know we discussed this a little earlier, buit hace any of you ever made indrantrone (threne) blue a key part of your palette? How do 'you' specifically make use of it? |
marie
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:04 am: | |
You're right. I just dug out my tube of Mineral Violet, and it's a different beast. I had forgotten how much red is in it. A long time ago I marked the tube as "ultramarine violet" and then proceeded to use the W/N because that was what I was accustomed to.
I can't wait to give it a try on a full painting! |
Robert
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:42 am: | |
I think the Holbein works better than the W/N ultramarine violet for flesh because the Holbein is much more maroon while the w/n is very bluish. Either is great in a palette--. One thing I have learned--you can almost completely remove earth colors from a pallete if you have a nice violet to mix with your yellows. |
marie
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:30 am: | |
That's good to know. I use W/N mostly. I have a tube of the Holbein stuff somewhere around, and I'll have to pull it out and give it another try. |
Robert
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:40 am: | |
I hhave to mention that Ted Nuttal insisited on this in our portrait palette--though he uses winsor newton paints (he simply adopted Charles Reid's palette for his own use--) he insisted on Holbein mineral violet. |
Robert
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:34 am: | |
This is true. But the Holbein Ult violet (Mineral Violet) is a little different from the others in hue and handling. It is great for a component of skin tones. A convience mix, of course, but very convienant. |
marie
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:41 pm: | |
I *love* ultramarine violet. I know I can mix the same hue from ult. blue and quinacridone rose, but I can't duplicate it's handling characteristics. Magic happens whenever I use it. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:35 pm: | |
Just discovered a new addition for my palette--Holbein mineral Violet--a very warm, granulating, and low intensity ultramarine violet that tints nicely and doesn't stain. Am finding it subtle and useful. |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:26 pm: | |
Thanks--good ol Winsor Violet under another cute name. Appreciate it! |
midnight_baseball
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:13 pm: | |
robert - it used to be there - terry pointed me to it in an older post - unfortunately that link no longer works - it tosses you out into the cj home page.
there WAS also a link to it right under the header paragraph description of AJ WC paints.
i have a printed copy i will reference for you:
Royal Amethyst (Diox): PV 23 Carbazole Dioxazine
hope this helps |
Robert
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 3:16 pm: | |
Is there a place on the cheap joe's website that gives the pigment makeup of American Journey watercolors? I am specifically looking for the pigment(s) in Royal Amethyst. |
dake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:20 am: | |
Sorry Robert I was responding to the original concern of kimarielle re it not mixing well. |
greg
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 2:36 pm: | |
this would not be archival, but in a mag one time I saw a painting an artist did with different strengths of coffee. Might be a fun class project. :) |
marie
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 2:26 pm: | |
I have to confess that I *love* to play with pigments, despite the fact that I tell my students that it's all about the drawing and the value. I have to keep telling myself that collecting pigments kind of like going to the ice cream parlor --- it's oh so fun to pick out a new flavor to try, but I don't know that it's really that good for me.
I did an interesting demonstration this morning. I often hear people complain that the colors are wrong on their paintings, and they ask how to fix it. I usually respond that they have a value/composition problem, not a color problem. So, this morning I brought in a big box of paint - I would guess 75 - 100 tubes of the stuff. I asked a volunteer to pick out two or three tubes of paint. The only rules were that I had to have a warm, a cool, a way to get a neutral (or semi-neutral), and way to get a dark. I bet that I could come up with something reasonable-looking. It worked. Good values; convincing form; no mud. |
Robert
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 7:25 am: | |
BTW--I just came across this post by someone on WET CANVAS that is probably appropos to me:
"Although it is understandable that some of us want to fully understand the materials that we use to create art, the fact remains that many of the greatest art works were created in ways that the art materials industry would tell us are poor. Remember that creativity is more important than technique or materials. Don't fall into the trap of 'researching' your materials too thoroughly - that's just a displacement activity that stops you actually painting (or sculpting or whatever). It's a trap that I have to fight myself..." |
Robert
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 6:55 am: | |
Spending lots of money trying out various brands of the ten basic colors of my palette. |
kimarielle
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:54 pm: | |
wow, robert...how do you KNOW all of this stuff?? |
Robert
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 6:58 pm: | |
They are both PB29 but this pigment comes in different shades and degrees of granulation.
In the Grumbacher Finest(and presumably the Prismacolor reincarnation) French Ultramarine has a strong violet undertone and granulates (precipitates) heavily. The Ultramarine (traditionally called permanent blue) is the same pigment name but the pigment is more the color of cobalt (zenith of the sky) blue and does not granulate. Each is nice for different reasons. Winsor Newton has a similar offering: French Ultramarine and Ultramarine blue Green shade with sim,ilar properties. In Holbein and Maimeriblu it is Ultramarine light and ultramarine deep (the deep have the french qualities).
Note: Grumbbacher Academy makes a single Ultramarine Blue which heavily granulates and is highly violet biased. |
kimarielle
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 5:09 pm: | |
Robert- What is the difference between regular Ultramarine and French Ultramarine? Aren't they the same pigments? I don't get it. I guess one speaks with an accent and has a bad attitude about Americans...? |
Robert
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 1:44 pm: | |
Dake--I am not sure if you are respondining to my post or not. If so, I don't follow .. since Grumbacher Finest Ultramarine is a single unmixed ultramarine pigment that is beautiful (PB29 sodium aluminum sulfosilicate) . I do agree with you about letting the natural pigment do its thing and that is why my palette has no mixed or hybrid pigments in it. |
greg
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 11:40 am: | |
once a color starts to dry in the tube, does it
still retain all of it's properties? It is easier
to mix fresh creamy paint, it takes a little longer
to mix cake paint. Do you spray cake pan paint with a mist bottle to get it moist and try keep it that way? |
Dake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
That's exactly why I use W&N. The more you mix your pigments the flatter they will look.
I mostly "mix" my pigs on the paper anyway and try to maintain the identity of the individual elements in the mix. Makes for much greater interest and vibrancy. Also one of the reasons watercolour beats all other mediums for organicity. Let go and allow the nature of pigments to do the work for you. |
Robert
| | Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 6:16 am: | |
Grumbacher Finest (definately not Grumbacher Academy Ultramarine and definately not Grumbacher Finest French Ultramarine) is a very brilliant intense blue that granulates very little (sometimes you might see a hint of fine dust (theoretically) but not much. It is quite similar to M. Graham Ultramarine. Prismacolor Ultramarine (NOT French Ultramarine) is probably the same thing since the other Prismacolors I have bought have been identical to their Grumbacher precusors. I use Grumbacher Finest (which Jerry's still carries) Ultramarine Blue becasue besides being the "prettiest" ultramarine out there (much less violet biased--more a mid-blue--used to be called Permanent Blue) it serves me both as cobalt (same hue but brighter) and Ultramarine (dark and intense when you need it to be). I find the M. Graham to be so close that the difference is 98% unnoticable. That should be no surprise since the same man, M. Graham, is responsible for both formulations. |
marie
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 8:49 pm: | |
Grumbacher is now manufactured under the Prismacolor label. The manufacturer claims that the Prismacolor paints are a different formulation, but I don't know firsthand.
Howard is right. If the separation in the W/N ultramarine isn't right for your style, I would look at either Maimeri or M. Graham. Both brands tend to suppress some of the granulation. |
marie
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 3:33 pm: | |
I kind of like the way it doesn't stay mixed. |
Howard
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 3:27 pm: | |
I have that paint and haven't had a problem with it though I've had some difficulties with other Winsor-Newton paints. You might want to try either Maimeri's, M. Graham's, or Daniel Smith's Ultramarine.
Howard |
kimarielle
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 2:54 pm: | |
When I use Winsor Newton French Ultramarine in mixes, it really doesn't want to stay mixed. I have to stir and stir the paint to keep it mixed. I was wondering if this is just common to that pigment, or is it a problem with the W/N brand of Ultramarine? I've read you all raving about the Grumbacher Ultramarine, but you've also said that it is to be discontinued. Any suggestions? I know that this happens when a paint granulates, but this just seems excessive. |
