| Author | Message | ||
  Suzy |
Karen I agree with you that Dobies theory and methood was my first real insight to color theory...as opposed to just "painting a picture with pretty colors" I loved her methodical theory of step by step learning the purpose of color and its place both on the pallette and in my work. Of course I have varied from the path much over the years yet when I am stumped on a painting and can't figure out whay the work isn't "Singing" I step back and try to look at it with the Dobie methood and sure enough, I am able to solve my dilema. I like her work...wouldn't buy it , but like it. I do love her mastery of color, however and the knowlege she inparted to me though her writing "Making colors sing" | ||
karen |
Jeanne Dobie's "Making Color Sing" was my beginner's bible. Her palette of very light, transparent colors is basic and easy to work with and she uses it to explain very basic principles-- transparency, temperature, value, etc. I believe the exercise your talking about, Rekhasharma, is not about mixing a grey--it's about complements: mixing a grey then putting it in the context of a primary color. When you paint the 3 little boxes of the primaries and then paint your grey around each of them, the grey will lean toward the complement of the primary it surrounds. So, for instance, your grey box that is surrounding the aureolin box should lean slightly purple. This play of complements is something that can really improve your painting. But you can't mix the same amount of the primaries for your grey or you WILL get mud. Always use less of at least one of those primaries for your grey. | ||
rekhasharma |
Eugene, I was doing just that except adding on paper the primary after brushing the grey in. This is the only method which departs from Jeanne Dobie. I shall try your method and report the results. | ||
Eugene |
REKHASHARMA, When you mix combinations of any yellows, reds and and blues you will probably get a uninteresting muddy looking gray. Try this. Mix not only the puddle of gray, but also one of the blue , the red and the yellow. Start the wash with the neutral gray, then start adding brushfulls of the colors and let them run together on the paper. The result will be a much more interesting color. You MUST work wet and let the colors mix on the paper. | ||
Robert |
Cerulean blue and indian red makes a lovely gray--one of the best--IF you use the idnisan red in a highly highly dilute form. As far as the rose mader/aurolein mixes--they are fugitive and that is why she dropped her palette, going for newer, lightfast pigments. | ||
rekhasharma |
It's not just the red and yellow mixes. I have tried twice to repeat her greys and for the life of me I just cannot get it right. Her 'neutral grey' from aureolin yellow + rose madder genuine + cobalt blue looks as much mud as it does with the mixture of cerulean blue + yello ochre + indian red. | ||
Eugene |
Concerning Jeanne Dobie. While I think some of her work is terrific, I think others is just “so-so”. IMHO she is too much of a “theory” painter. OK, I may use her theories as a guide, but the real way to learn about color is by trial and error. Also I wonder about her switching brands from W&N to Daniel Smith. Could it be because she is no longer on the W&N advisory board? Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? And although I consider myself a transparent painter, I dearly like the earth colors. Can’t see why I should bother mixing reds and yellows to get something almost like burnt sienna, as she suggests. (when I can get burnt sienna out of a tube.) | ||
Robert |
Sarita addresses this below, sorry. | ||
Robert |
Jeanne Dobie recommends aureolin and rose matter--both highly fugitive pigments. I don't know what it is but she supposedly uses a completely different palette now-- | ||
Eric |
I'm only casually acquainted with Jeanne Dobie's work and have briefly paged through the Making Color Sing book, but hasn't her art style changed since her book came out? I don't think it's as drastic of a change as Skip Lawrence, but it still seems a lot different. | ||
rekhasharma |
Thank you, Sarita and Suzy. You have encouraged me to proceed with Dobie's book. You lot are so fortunate to have workshops run at reasonable costs and from what I gather highly informative; I envy you lot. I am also getting the feeling that almost all of you are professional artists of several years so I should be able to pick up a lot of tips from you. | ||
sarita |
for Rekhasharma If you check out Jeanne Dobie's website (www.jeannedobie.com) You will find she has updated her palette using Daniel Smith colors. She has a chart corresponding to the colors she used in her book. I hope this helps! | ||
Suzy |
I took a class that was taught by one one of Jeanne Dobies long time students. The class was based on the book. We were required to buy all those colors, (They let us buy a large "squirt" from the teacher so we didn't havce to buy each tube) and we were to buy a new pallette to put them in, layed out the same way Jeanne Dobie reccomends. We then went step by step through the entire book, doing each exercise creating a new paper/study, identical to those shown in the book. It was amazing what I learned. Without exception the most valuable time I have ever spent learning about color. After 6 years I still have all those exercises in my studio and refer to them all the time. even though I have modified my pallette to suit myself and my needs and likes, I still use the valuable lesseoned learned from that week. I highly suggest, if you are disicplined enough, to go through that book and using her formulas, create your own studies. | ||
rekhasharma |
At the moment I am reading Jeanne Dobie's Making Color Sing. I am now totally confused. Her basic selection is: aureolin yellow fugitive rose madder genuine fugitive cobalt blue viridian Her occasional list is: Cad yellow Cad orange Cad red French ultramarine Light red Indian red Transparent staining: alizarin crimson, winsor blue (phthalo blue), and winsor green (phthalo green) | ||
Robert |
BTW--If I could give a novice watercolorist any single piece of advice, it would be to get "Blue and Yellow Don't make Green" by Wilcox and use his limited palette. Doing that was the best thing that ever happened to my painting life. | ||
Robert |
Actually, for a cool or blue biased red he lists quinacridone violet (perm rose) and omits aliz. He aslo inclues yellow ochre and white: Check this out: http://www.schoolofcolor.com/acatalog/WCOLOUR_16ml.html These are actually davini / Amrican Journey paints. | ||
Robert |
Great minds think alike. | ||
marie |
I had no idea. I have never read the Wilcox book. | ||
Robert |
BTW--Marie--Your suggsted palette is exactly the Michael Wilcox palette with the exception that his yellows are cad yellow pale or light and lemon yellow. | ||
Robert |
Given that, I would go with the pairing of maimeri permanent lemon and maimeri indian yellow. A mix of the two is a wonderful mid yellow plus the green and orange biases of the respective paints on their own. this is my stantard yellow combo (though I experiment with other stuff a lot). | ||
marie |
When I said primary yellow, I was thinking about something that doesn't read as orangeish or greenish. I was thinking about what Handprint would describe as a hue angle around 85 - 90 -- W/N Winsor Yellow, Maimeri Cadmium Yellow Light, or Maimeri Primary Yellow (PY97). For the deeper yellow, I might have gone with something more toward orange than New Gamboge. I chose New Gamboge because I find it a a very practical pigment -- it always seems to play well with other pigments. | ||
Eric |
After re-looking at the pallette, I overlooked the fact that both yellows are yellows leaning warmer, when in my opinion, one of the yellows should lean in towards the cooler side, like a lemon yellow. | ||
Robert |
Marie--this is a very good palette. The only variable is the transparent yellow selected (New Gamboge)--Other possiblities: Winsor Yellow, Permanent Yellow (Daler-Rowney), Transparent Yellow. | ||
Eric |
Marie, that's a good pallette. It covers about everything without going overboard on buying colors. | ||
Eugene |
Marie and Robert. I agree with you completely! | ||
marie |
I hesitate to recommend a specific palette. Choosing a palette is such a personal decision -- there are lots of good choices depending on your style. A reasonably versatile palette of 11 colors might be: -- cadmium yellow (or some other primary yellow) -- nickel dioxine yellow (new gamboge) -- raw sienna -- burnt sienna -- cadmium scarlet or red light -- permanent alizarin -- permanent rose -- ultramarine blue -- cerulean blue -- thalo blue -- thalo green This isn't my palette, but I think it would give you a good range of color, values, and texture. By the way, lots of folks posted their palette preferences a while back in a thread called "What's *Your* materials list?" | ||
rekhasharma |
The main isssue in this thread has been the size and quality of the desirable palette, not artistic techniques. When you look back in history the earliest watercolourists had no more than 9 pigments (Cezanne, for example). The later developments are due to evolution of synthetic pigments for the automobile industry. I agree with you all that painting is about seeing form and value not primarily pigments. | ||
Robert |
No--I have benefited greatly from handprint's info--it enables me to select tubes of paint with a bit of fore knowledge, not just leap blindly. However, I don,t feel that the site provides expert advice on the art of painting, just on the materials. It's easy for the line to get blurred and thought I would simply underscore it. | ||
marie |
I don't think there's any contempt for handprint. It's a marvelous resource from which I (and probably most of us) have benefited greatly. I am a firm believer in understanding one's materials. Any comments that may appear negative are more an effort to keep things in perspective. It's easy to get caught up in all the technical details -- thinking that there's a magic pigment or a magic brush that will solve all your painting issues. (And I am as guilty of it as anyone.) The bottom line is that painting is more about fine seeing than about any material or technique. | ||
rekhasharma |
Is there something I am missing; there seems to be undercurrent of contempt against handprint - please elaborate | ||
Eugene |
Bravo Robert. W. Homer did pretty well without the help of handprint. | ||
Robert |
Interesting that you mentioned Opera and Cobalt tyrquoise light --- in stating that they consisit of mixtures of 2 pigments, are you rejecting them based upoin that? If so, I think you may be misdirected. The rejection of two pigment mixes by many artists has to do with convienance mixtures, mixtues which can easily be made from single pigment sources--example cadmium orange from cad. yellow and cad. red or sap green from pthalo green and _______ (insert any warm yellow). However, sometimes a legit offering has to be made from two pigments and these are not redily available individually--such as the 2 you mentioned. ie., It does no good to lament that opera is a mix becasue you can't but a tube of rhodamine b dye as far as I know. I don't want to at all diminish the fine work of handprint--but one must draw a clear distinction between the information baed upon objective tests and the ADVICE about that the use of the materials that would be more based upon artistic needs. My point is that handprint is a materials testing site and any with artistic concerns one is better off consulting professional artists whose expertise is in mastery of the medium. Interestingly enough, many of these know little about the science of their materials and care even less. handprint addresses this but can also kick out thought so fat into the left brain that the right brain is held prisoner by the scientific concerns. | ||
rekhasharma |
I'd go along with that, Robert. And, yes I have read books that give instructions on watercolour painting, but as would be wont, each has their own palette. I wanted just the 12 'true colours' (to keep to the budget) so I could then create what colours I wanted. In that sense, handprint was a comprehensive source of information. On the other hand, it was also informtive in pointing out which pigments/combinations not to use; for example, you mentioned Opera as a mixture two pigments. Cobalt turquoise light is a mixture of cobalt and chromium oxides, etc. etc... | ||
Robert |
My advice is to not consult handprint for artistic advice. Consult master artists--in books, workshops etc. Either way, they are thousands of ways to paint, none right or wrong. | ||
rekhasharma |
I guess that is what I am battling with, Bill. I am a scientist and when I mix colours all manner of questions come to mind but at the end of the day I want to paint, amongst other, imaginary things derived from real life objects I like. A lot of artists say who says the sky should be blue or the trees green and I agree. | ||
Bill |
Also, the favorite palette of a scientist might be different than the optimum palette for a master artist. | ||
Robert |
Different strokes for different folks. | ||
Eric |
Suzy, wouldn't you eventually run out of different combinations...I mean, there aren't really that many different colors out there, are there? But I do understand the general meaning of what you're saying...don't stay in a rut, try something new. | ||
rekhasharma |
Suzy, artists have worked with limited palette for centuries and produced wonderful paintings. Paints are a means to an end, not a complete end in itself | ||
Suzy |
Although Bruce has a preferred palette, I'll bet he doesn't quit trying new stuff.(...do ya Bruce?) | ||
Suzy |
Not me..I am always looking for the perfect pallete. The day I stop, I will, no doubt, stop painting. Art is a journey of new adventure and learning. To find one pallete and never change is to look and one view of the world and say I never need to see another. Its like trying to eat everything you ever need for nourishment the rest of your life all at once. Just because I have love and crave Godiva dark chocolate truffles doesn't mean I am going to quit tasting any other. Heaven forbid! IMHO...Don't ever stop searching | ||
Robert |
What I meant was that each o\f us has to find the best that thing for his particular use. Bruce's work is too exhaustive to be definitive for a particular case. It is like a cookbook and each individual artist has a different receipe to cook. Best wishes with all of that, sorry I couldn't be of any help. | ||
rekhasharma |
"search for the perfect palette" I wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel. That has demonstrably already been done by Bruce MacEvoy in handprint.com. What was going to be a hobby on a budget has now become a rolls royce experiment. | ||
Robert |
Please let us know how this works out. I wish you the best with the on going search for the perfect palette. | ||
rekhasharma |
Point taken | ||
Robert |
wrong again--duty and shiopping are diffeent. mea culpa...I'll shut up now. I agree with Suzy. | ||
Robert |
You wouldn't actually save forty dollars. It would cost 10-12 to send it to a US adress and then probably 15 more to send it to the UK. Net gain $13-15. Hardly worth all of this. | ||
Robert |
What about this logic--I knowingly send these to you claiming they are a gift when in my heart I know they are purchased products that you are evading duty on. That makes me dishonest and incurs all sorts of bad karma--and as I mentioned, to save you $40 I would have to take an hour out of my day, drive to the post office, and stand in line for 20 minutes. Is all this a reasonable thing to ask? Just extending the argument. No malice. I hope you realize we are all trying to be helpful. | ||
rekhasharma |
Well, my argument was that you can send gifts to your friends and family and they don't pay customs duty. Extend the argument... | ||
Suz |
Although I do use some Daniel Smith paints, mostly because I get the catalog and get swept away with all the fun stuff to buy, I really don't think the quality is any different from other leading brands in the industry. I love Mameri, Holbien and Daler-Rowney as well as some of of Old Cheap Joes American Journey stuff. Basically I would suggest thst you should uses what is availabe in your area and learn and grow to love that. Im sure you realize by now that asking that someone buy it for you and mail as a gift is literally asking someone to cheat and steal from your government. There is a reason why they charge duty. It is to maintain the trade balance among nations. Its your country's way of saying, "Hey, buy here in the UK in stead of sending pounds overseas" I know you were just miffed over the $40 but you really have to look at the big picture. | ||
Robert |
I recognize it is a Hindu name and somehow assumed the masculine. I am sorry for the blunder. | ||
Robert |
This is wrong--the w/n is not that much-- the shopping cart somehow posted 14ml plus 37 ml prices. The total for 14ml tubes is $124.08--still 50 bucks more than maimeriblu. With the new 37 ml tubes of w/n perhaps the per ounce prices are closer. | ||
rekhasharma |
Robert, it's not him; it's her. I know it's difficult to tell with unusual names | ||
Robert |
There is one big diffence between brands as illustrated-- Below is my basic palette in maimerible and Winsor Newton, copied from Cheap Joe's shopping cart. Identical pigments in each list. The Maimerible (15ml tubes) totals 75 bucks and the W/N list totals $250 bucks. A huge price difference!!!! tem #: MB053 Maimeriblu Watercolor Avignon Orange 15 ML $6.79 $6.79 Item #: MB084 Maimeriblu Watercolor Cad Yellow Deep 15 ML $7.79 $7.79 Item #: MB098 Maimeriblu Watercolor Indian Yellow 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Item #: MB112 Maimeriblu Watercolor Perm. Yellow Lemon 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Item #: MB226 Maimeriblu Watercolor Cad Red Light 15 ML $7.79 $7.79 Item #: MB256 Maimeriblu Watercolor Primary Red-Magenta 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Item #: MB262 Maimeriblu Watercolor Venetian Red 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Item #: MB324 Maimeriblu Watercolor Cupric Green Deep 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Item #: MB368 Maimeriblu Watercolor Cereulean Blue 15 ML $9.99 $9.99 Item #: MB373 Maimeriblu Watercolor Cobalt Blue Light 15 ML $9.99 $9.99 Item #: MB392 Maimeriblu Watercolor Ultramarine Deep 15 ML $4.79 $4.79 Subtotal: $71.09 OOOps --left out Primary Blue cyan--Brings total to $75 dollars Winsor Newton watercolors Brown Madder - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Item #: W106-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Cadmium Scarlet - 14ml $13.69 $27.38 Item #: W108-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Cadmium Yellow - 14ml $12.99 $25.98 Item #: W137-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Cerulean Blue - 14ml $10.59 $21.18 Item #: W178-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Cobalt Blue - 14ml $13.69 $27.38 Item #: W263-14 Winsor Newton watercolors French Ultramarine - 14ml $9.79 $19.58 Item #: W319-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Indian Yellow - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Item #: W489-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Perm. Magenta - 14ml $10.59 $21.18 Item #: W678-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Venetian Red - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Item #: W709-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Winsor Blue Red Shade - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Item #: W719-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Winsor Green Blue Shade - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Item #: W722-14 Winsor Newton watercolors Winsor Lemon - 14ml $8.79 $17.58 Subtotal: $248.16 | ||
Robert |
I say this because i hate to see R. go to so much trouble to procure DS when Maimeriblu is just as good and easier for him to get. | ||
Robert |
No--there are differences, but ... you should see my current box of paints--every brand under the sun . I used to have strong preferences but really, they all work pretty well (if it is the same pigment). That doesn't mean there aren't differences, but the differences are small compared to the similarities. These days they are all basically good. | ||
Raliegh |
I for one, was very glad for the tip about Maimeriblu. I have switched most of my paint from WN as they are used up. Thanks Robert. | ||
terry |
Robert...can I quote you on that last sentence? | ||
Robert |
Trial and eror. Basic info is on handprint, though you can't always translate his scientific tests into how the paint will work for you. In practical use there isn't all that much difference among the brands. | ||
rekhasharma |
Where do you collect all this information from Robert? | ||
Robert |
I say this becasie I love Daler-Rowney paints and you "wouldn't touch them with a barge pole." Perhaps we are on fundamentally different pages and you should ignore everything I've said. I would if I were you. | ||
Robert |
Rekasharma-- One thing--you seem very fastidious in your analysis and requirements. Please don't take my word for anything--I don't want the responsibilty of your disappointment with my recommendations. If i could withdraw the posts, I probably would. | ||
Robert |
ooops--I wrote "...is necessarily accurate"--Insert a NOT before necessarily, please. | ||
Robert |
Your comment that the daniel Smith uses different additives and that explains the cost (and quality, by implication) is necessarily accurate--marketing concerns are complex. Maimeri uses kordufan gum arabic from Sudan--the best. I don't feel up to arguing the pros and cons of different brands. Here is the list I promised; DS Watercolor Permanent Yellow Deep Not found elsewhere--closest is Winsor Yellow Deep--very similar (any hypothetical differenceunnoticable) Alao M. Graham Gamboige (reformulated from PY110 but even better). Best--a different pigment, but in my opinion, even better, is Maimeriblu perm. Yellow deep--It has no green in undertone (a unique property) and thus mixes more naturally. My preference though, is Maimeriblu Indian yellow, a combination of Perm. Yellow Deep and Quin Gold. DS Watercolor Perinone Orange-- Maimeriblu Orange Lake--identical DS Watercolor Carbazole Violet Maimeriblu Permenent Violet Bluish-identical M. Graham -- Dioxazine Purpke DS Watercolor Cobalt Green Pale-- Rembrandt Cobalt Green DS Watercolor PermanentGreenlight Maimeriblue permanent green Light DS Watercolor Phthalo Green YS Maimerible Cupric Green Light DS Watercolor Sap Green Maimeriblu sap green--same components --click on color to get pigments: http://www.maimeri.it/FineArts/colorprod.asp?mnu=0301# DS Watercolor Monte Amiata Natural Sienna No exact equivalent DS Watercolor Lunar Earth no exact equivalent DS Watercolor Perylene Maroon Daler-Rowney is quite good DS Watercolor Deep Scarlet DS Watercolor Burnt Umber Ma imeri is bark and rich, if that's what you want. | ||
rekhasharma |
The Daniel Smith paints I ordered are DS Watercolor Permanent Yellow Deep DS Watercolor Perinone Orange DS Watercolor Carbazole Violet DS Watercolor Cobalt Green Pale DS Watercolor PermanentGreenlight DS Watercolor Phthalo Green YS DS Watercolor Sap Green DS Watercolor Monte Amiata Natural Sienna DS Watercolor Lunar Earth DS Watercolor Perylene Maroon DS Watercolor Deep Scarlet DS Watercolor Burnt Umber | ||
rekhasharma |
I wouldn't touch Daler-Rowney with a barge pole. The paint dries out of the tube too quickly and is not the nice texture of say from Winsor and Newton | ||
rekhasharma |
This was a one-off purchase anyway, Robert, and I picked the 12 unique colours from handprint.com. As you say though the pigments are all the same but the fillers and concentration make the difference in cost | ||
Robert |
By surfing the web, I just located a mail order house in England that sells Maimeriblu watercolors. These are at least as good as Daniel Smith, cheaper, and have similar handling qualities: http://www.westgateartsupplies.com/mailorder/watercolours_maimeri_blu.htm | ||
Robert |
Additionally, here's a British store that sells M. Graham, arguably the best American made watercolor: http://www.lawrence.co.uk/shop/index.html?loadfile=catalog1_0.html | ||
Robert |
Daler Rowney examples: Transparent red brown=quinacridone maroon Permanent rose= quinacridone violet quinacridone red = ditto permanent magenta= quin. magenta | ||
Robert |
Daniel Smith does ofer a lot of quinacridones, but Maimeri does too, they just don't call the paints quinacridone--examples: Avignon Orange=quinacridone maroon Golden lake= quinacridone gold Rose lake= quinacridone pink Terizano red= quinacridone red Verizon violet= quinacridone violet dragon's blood= quinacridone sienna | ||
Robert |
Rekhashrma-- I just meant that intentionally circumventing customs might be illegal. I certainly wouldn't risk it. Also, let's say someone agreed to this plan. Getting to and standing in line at a US post office and filling out a customs form to ship it to you is a time consuming process. Worht $40 in time and hassle, easily. I have a suggestion-- First, Daniel Smith paints for the most part have equivalents in other brands (except for the unique earth pigments which are unnecessary anyway). They are good paints, but no better than Maimeri, Winsor Newton, Rembrandt or Daler-Rowney, which are all readily avaible in England. I suggest you list the colors you have ordered and I will post for you the exact equivalent in other brands. Then you can cancel your order and get your paints locally. What good will it go you to get hooked on Daniel Smith with the sort of duty charges involved anyway? | ||
rekhasharma |
I don't think so | ||
Robert |
Rekhasharma-- I think you will need more than a kind soul to help. You will also need a soul with a criminal bent. | ||
rekhasharma |
I am need of a lot of cheering up today. I ordered some watercolour paints from Daniel Smith (~$95 to set myself up, I can't really afford it but there goes) and received today a biggy invoice for custom duty of ~$40. I wonder whether there's a kind soul out there who will help me out; it's like this. I will place the order to your US address and you send it as a gift to me. Of course, I shall pay for it upfront and via Paypal. Anyone there? |
