| Author | Message | ||
  Sid |
Gee! Since you guys asked Anon. Painter for a bit of personal info, he/she seems to have disappeared?? Maybe they are just busy? Or very shy. | ||
Raliegh |
I've been thinking the same thing as Suzy, Anonymous, we're interested in your background. | ||
Suz |
Anon- Painter...you seem very knowledgable and experienced. What is your painting background... are you a full timer, hobbist, only watercolors, do you teach, how many years??? Its just fun to know ones backgground when much knowledge gleans forth! (I appreciate your anonimity but a little info would be fun and insightful.) Most of us have been on the board so long we know each others art-life stories. Just curious... Ignore me if Im too nosey. | ||
Anonymous Painter |
As to the original question (on topic :) ), I paint flat (or slightly raised) in my 'studio,' but upright at life sessions and plein air. Occasionally a 'drip' threatens at the bottom of the stroke, and then I use the brush (held upright, with tip up), to gently touch the tip to the gathered bead. This lets the excess paint travel back to the belly of the brush. Important: If you have major drip problems when painting upright (not occasional, but major), you are probably using too much water in your mixes, or not properly controlling moisture in the brush before you pick up paint. This is actually a problem -- even if you paint flat -- because it results in a hard line of pigment at your edges. It's good to learn to wick the brush properly, and use paint at the right (usually 'fluid') consistency, no matter at what angle you paint. :) To paint a big wash, use a big brush, not wetter paint. :D The Cosmospin Mix (da Vinci) are quite affordable), even in large sizes. Even the Cosmotop Spin (da Dinci) large brushes work quite well, though they have the usual tendency to dump their moisture at first touch of brush to paper. Even when I paint wet-in-wet, I just prewet a heavy paper, then touch in moist (not soaking wet) color from the brush. It's also possible to use a lighter (140 lb.) presoaked paper laid on something very smoooth, like Plexiglass, to hold the moisture longer. Unless you're painting really wet -- wet-in-wet over the whole paper -- puddles are not a good thing in watercolor. ;) | ||
Anonymous |
I just noticed this on e-bay--perfect for reducing color to values. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150018849088&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RSCC_Pr12_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=150018261587&itemcount=12&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget | ||
Anonymous |
I don't know why it was so difficult since Cheap Joes sells this in the aformentioned link (?????) Were they out of stock? | ||
Rekha |
I wish I had known this some months ago. I had a terrible time finding it; looked in school/college/art websites. Finally only one, Arbor Scientific turned up. That's where I bought it from, but I would like to train my eye as every artist uses it. I have tried squinting but cannot see black and white as you lot can. I can see dark and coloured shapes not black and white. This would be in line with the science of vision. | ||
Anonymous |
Cheap joes sells the red plastic in the David Rankin kit: http://www.cheapjoes.com/art-supplies/4958_don-rankins-perception-kit.asp | ||
Anonymous |
Rekha said that she is "having problems recognizing values in colour." Try observing your subject through a pane of red colored transparent plastic. All of the colors will appear as shades of gray, defining their values. | ||
Rekha |
Also the written word is going to be different from that in a workshop. I think you are talking about workshops and it is quite feasible to eke out details that worry you, but you cannot do that with a book. | ||
Rekha |
I couldn't agree with you more, Eric and Eugene, good professionals don't necessarily make good teachers or publishers. It is rare to have all of those qualities. I missed out Alex Powers and John Blockley from my list. | ||
Eric |
Rekha, it's great that you're seeking out these books. You'll undoubtedly find some that strike a chord with you. Yeah, Webb's writing is a bit flowery but I also think he's clever and has a good way of making you remember things. Couch has a clear way of explaining things. It's easy to understand him. Very simple and straightforward. | ||
Eugene |
Suzy, I too, didn't get anything but poor advice from Skip Lawrence workshop. Never had Szabo or Couch but have heard negative feelings about both. Good painters are not always good teachers. | ||
Rekha |
Oh, and on the point of 'teachability', Suzy, if a teacher cannot come across clearly to the student, it is usually not the student's deficiency, it is the teacher's techniques that are deficient. | ||
Rekha |
Suzy, I have only been in this for about six months. I have catholic tastes from LeClair, Whitney, Pat Dews, Linda Kemp, Robert Wade, Schink, Lawrence, Ed Betts, Jane Hofstetter to any that the art forum or watercolour magazines recommend. Even before I can think of designs I am having problems recognizing values in colour. So very early days. | ||
Suz |
Just Curious Rekha, what book has spoken to you other than Tony Couch??? | ||
Suz |
BTW..in workshop Frank Webb and Skip Lawerence couldn't have be more apart in style, technique and theory. Not even in the same ball park... IMHO | ||
Suzy |
I guess thats why there are so many choicces, styles, etc. Personally, I am a huge Frank Webb fan. (I rarely buy art anymore as my walls are getting too full butI just bought one of his originals...) I have taken dozen of workshops and my three biggest disapointments were Tony Couch and Skip Lawerence and Zolton Szabo (I know I speeled it wrong but I can't remember how to spell his name.) My point is that each teacher speaks to their students differently. Each hears differently as well. If we all heard and did the same thing, we'd all paint a like...boring... Also we all absorb differently based on our skill and teachability level as well as how we feel that morning!! ...at least for me it makes a difference!!! (HA-HA) Sorry you were not impressed by our reccomendations. I still love his Composition book. Its his best. I also loved Jeanne Dobie's "Making Colors Sing." | ||
Rekha |
Well, here goes and what I am about to write is purely my opinions so some will think they are insane, and the fans may not like it either. I like his paintings but cannot differentiate them from Tony Couch's, Skip Lawrence or Schink's paintings - the untrained eye. I know it takes a lot of hard work and effort in writing books so I have thought long and hard before writing this. I found Frank Webb's book disappointing on grounds of stultified and flowery writing which is at times also factually incorrect (see 'footnote' below). When I first noticed it I just got a bug to go looking for more and the list grew. Whatever he wrote I felt 'yes, that's intuitive tell me some more' and that more wasn't there, compared to Tony Couch's book which I found delightful to read and was fortunate to watch a video of lessons on painting streams and river. footnotes: These are really quotations from his book which indicate what I meant and also some of these statements are incorrect. * gradation: when it moves in all directions at one it is radiation p.30 * compositional ideas and spatial concepts will be paraded in a galaxy of professional paintings straight line is precise, hard, masculine and economical p.35 * shape is visual but is also apprehended by touch and muscular action p.45 * automatic shapes: many painters make free doodles. A spontaneous drawing appeals to our muscles, bones and viscera p.51 * diffraction is a property of the eye p.60 * passages of this kind produce circulation p.66 | ||
A.N. |
Not to worry, these are thin books--in no way tomes. | ||
Rekha |
I am a slow reader, Eric, so can't promise when I shall comment about the tomes I have requested from the library | ||
Eric |
Rekha, it will be interesting to read your thoughts after reading those books. | ||
Rekha |
Thank you all! I have found and requested Frank Webb's Artist's guide to composition (that's all there was) and Tony Couch's Key to successful painting from the library. Fortunately, I have Ed Whitney's very erudite and eclectic book Complete Guide to Watercolor Painting and hope that it enriches my learning as it has done yours. | ||
Eugene |
REKHA I found this review on Webb's book Webb on Watercolor. Couldn't find one on the latest one on composition. WEBB ON WATERCOLOR This Book is an Art of Work, January 28, 2006 Reviewer: John Mabry (Palos Verdes, CA USA) If you had to purchase only 1 book on watercolor this would be the one you would choose! It covers most of the technical aspects of paint, paper, brushes, etc., as do many other books, however, Frank Webb's work is different in important ways-most instructive to laymen and experienced alike. First, he paints with a broad strokewhich involves larger brushes and confidence. This book is unusual in the sense that Webb inspires the reader/artist to go beyond appearances and open-up to emotions and unusual color solutions. Well illustrated sections on preliminary drawings and washes, he leads the reader to begin work without too much fussing around. Not a formula painter, Webb has been around and explains the value of practice and experience. I have a dozen or two books on watercolor, but this is the most colorful and clearly explained of them all. Highly recommended! | ||
Eric |
To further answer your question, Rekha, most instructor's books focus on materials, or how to paint a certain subject through step by step instructions. Webb's emphasis is on design. Dominance, unity, balance, alternation, repetition, harmony, contrast, gradation. He has more of a cerebral approach than the vast majority of instructors. | ||
Eric |
Webb was a student of the late legendary Ed Whitney. Whitney's focus was on "The Principles of Design", which Webb goes into great detail in his book. For design and composition, the only other book that I'm aware of that is as true to the Whitney teachings is Tony Couch's Keys to Successful Painting, which is now out of print. Of course, Whitney's book "Complete Guide to Watercolor Painting" is still in print and another very interesting book is "Painting the Edgar Whitney Way" by Ron Ransom, which features many of his disciples. For me, having very little art education until I stumbled into these books, I can't recommend them highly enough. | ||
Rekha |
Can someone tell me how Frank Webb's book is different to those written by other artists. I am not prepared to pay +$50 to find out for myself | ||
Eric |
It's called "Composition for the Painter". | ||
Eric |
Suzy, that Webb book has been renamed. I can't remember the new name but it's the same content. I'll cosign on your opinion of the book. | ||
Eugene |
Suzy, I'm probably wrong. I've taken so many workshops I sometimes get them mixed up. Sorry. | ||
Eugene |
Suzy-- I took a workshop With Frank Webb too (in studio, not plein air) and he painte upright. But I noticed in his books he is painting flat. Maybe in this workshop he painted upright so that it would be easier for us to see what he was doing. | ||
Suzy |
Ah... Eugene...very Webb-ish.... nice. BTW, Frank Webb does not paint almost vertical...at least not in the four workshops I've taken form him... he paints almost flat....just barely lifted at the top with a smallpad under his board... Also. Frank has repubished his book called "Strengthening your Painting Through Dynamic Composition." It is my bible on composition.... | ||
Eugene |
Rekha. You can paint a lot of smaller things with a 1/4 inch flat by using the edge or corner of the brush. You are forced to suggest the foilage rather than do an accurate rendering. John. As I see it, the advantage of this method is that it forces you to paint "looser", if that's what you're after. I'm not sure if I want to paint looser or continue in my more controlled way. I think it may be best for plein air. It also semmed to be easier to suggest the soft windows in the background buildings. Another thing-- I learned to draw at an upright easel, and so I think that drawing with the brush is easier for me upright. I think it would be good for working from a model for that reason. Seemed to work pretty well for a cityscape, now I'm going to try a typical landscape. I don't think you can paint wet enough , upright, to get much granulation. | ||
John Preston |
It's very nice and doesn't look as though it was a fisrt try at a new method. I can't tell it from a horizontally painted image - Guess I was expecting something with long vertical passages of wet blended color like certain Don Andrews pictures. Did you notice anything particularly advantageous to this approach? Does it enhance granulation or anything? | ||
Rekha |
Nita Engle and Jeanne Dobie use small cups to deliver their paints on to paper How on earth did you do the flowers on pots with these brushes? | ||
Eugene |
Rekha--- No, I painted very much as I usually do, Except that I was careful not to load my brush too heavily, to avoid drips and dribbles. I painted most of it with 1/2 and 3/4 inch flats. Using a 1/4 inch flat for the smaller details. | ||
Rekha |
Did you load all the pigments on brushes in readiness to painting? Gail Speckmann in her Wet in wet watercolor book advises so | ||
Eugene |
Here’s my first try at painting at 90% angle. Not really successful but I’m learning. Materials: 1/4 sheet 140# waterford CP, Tsunami flats from 1/4 in. to 1 in, quin. gold, perm. rose, ultramarine blue, and sap green. What I learned-- It forces you to paint loose. Surprisingly, I had no trouble with drips, Next time i’m going to try 1/2 sheet. because you don’t have enough control to play with details. You must paint big and bold. I didn’t first make a value sketch and should have! The big shapes say it all in this kind of painting. You have to plan ahead, You can't wing it as you’re painting. At least I can’t. I had a lot of fun trying and will try some others. Probably never be my way of painting , but it might force me out of my rut.  | ||
Grace |
Holy Hannah! Sunday afternoon thoughts: Here I was, telling Runjhun how to do things, when I ever so quickly said "no way" to upright after one itsy bitsy try. Closed minded old woman. WELL. Thank you all for this post. I have been doing "almost" upright all afternoon. Am so busy embracing, watching, letting GO. Is it a break through or just plain fun I am having? I can say I am looser for the trying. Thanks. | ||
marie |
You nailed it. You need a heavier concentration of paint because the paint runs down the page. | ||
Rekha |
I don't understand why you would need a more concentrated pigment suspension for upright painting; my only guess is that paint runs down quickly leaving a scarce track of paint. | ||
marie |
I have worked upright with cold-pressed, rough, and hot-pressed papers, although I use cold-pressed and rough most frequently. I haven't noticed much difference with hot-pressed paper; other folks may have had different experiences. Midnight Baseball, those are good suggestions about pre-wetting the paper and mixing more pigment. I paint upright so frequently that I forget that you do need a slightly stronger concentration of paint. | ||
Rekha |
Which kind of paper do you use on an upright? I understand that HP paper doesn't let the paint spread and is probably not suitable for upright. | ||
midnight_baseball |
in addition to marie's fine tips, two other things that help when painting at an extreme upright angle: + prewet the area you want to apply the paint to + use a bit more pigment in your mix. has anyone seen don andrews paint? i highly recommend the video "making watercolor glow" | ||
Dan |
I do a bit of detailing with my work so after an initial wash my table is set at about 20 degrees also. I find this comfortable. I'm not into "speed work" though and will paint as slow as I please. I don't run "races" with myself..therefore the paper doesn't often run colors. Hmm....I would care to venture that "speed" or "demo" painters are mostly upright and standing. Betcha! Perhaps we admire them subconciously when we watch them work. Dan | ||
A.N. |
I paint at about 15 degrees--I personally don't embrace the drips. | ||
Grace |
I have always wondered about how one could do this. I read this post this morning. When I went to the studio, I decided to give it a try. Not for me. The painting process was soon all about drips, not what was on the paper. Spent too much time drip watching. I could see how cool this would be with an abstract. Color me too tight to drip. | ||
Eugene |
Marie, thanks for the suggestions. They sound good. A.N. Drips are great if they add to the painting. But unwanted drips are a problem that I cannot embrace. | ||
A.N. |
Embrace the drips. | ||
marie |
I do all my figuative work with the easel upright because it helps with the drawing. Sometimes it runs and drips anyhow, but my style is loose enough so that I can often get away from it. Some things that help with the drips: * Keep a dry paper towel (preferably Bounty -- it absorbs water the best) in your left hand to catch the water. * Keep an eye on the bottom of the washes until the shine begins to disappear. When a bead looks like it's getting ready to drip, gently touch a piece of the paper towel to the drip without touching your watercolor paper. * Sometimes I tape a piece of paper towel hanging down from under the bottom of the paper. This helps to prevent blossoms and backruns at the bottom of the page. * Use non-staining pigments so that you can mop up drips without leaving a stain. | ||
Eugene |
I have always painted with my board at about 20%. But I notice that many of the artists that I admire paint almost upright at about 90%. (Castagnet, Webb, Janet Walsh, etc.,) How do you paint at that angle without having runs and dribbles? Hints and advice are welcome. I usually paint in big wet washes, but I’m going to some experimenting. |
