| Author | Message | ||
  Bill Unregistered guest |
I'm sure my brain is dealing with values. How could it not? It is just that I am painting with the feeling of "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bill, you're lucky. I really have to think about values. | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
I think in terms of how to capture what's in front of me and the values just seem to happen. | ||
Kisha Krisha Unregistered guest |
Eric--if using value scales helps, by all means use them. | ||
Rekha Intermediate Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2006 |
You have probably misunderstood me. When I said a 9-value scale, I meant that it would lead to 9C2 number of comparisons, 181440 number of value comparisons. I am just starting out and am pleased that have reached a stage that I can differentiate upto 4 value comparisons. But I don't know whether such paintings exist. Please enlighten me, this is why I attend this forum | ||
Whitewatercolor Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2006 |
Rekha: Could you post a 9-10 value painting so I can see what you are writing about? | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Krisha, it's not just the Edgar Whitney camp that preaches the importance of value sketches. Others that have no connection to Whitney recommend it as well. Just curious as to your advice to beginning watercolorists? Value sketch or just "dive right in" and start painting? | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 73 Registered: 8-2006 |
One more thing ... I don't think there's any magic formula that works for everyone. I think the exact strategies will be different for each person. | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2006 |
As for the questions of whether we use thumbnails or not, I think it is better to use thumbnails even though I don't do it as often as I should. It's a classic case of "do as I say, not as I do." Whether you use thumbnails or figure it out in your head, however, there is still a question of what strategies you use to figure out your values. I think it's more complex than just painting the values that you see -- the brain can really play on you. One of the big difficulties is that when focus in on a small area then you will tend to see small variations in value as being much greater than they really are. Hence, the need to squint to simplify the values. If I had time, I would like to do a demonstration, but I'm pressed with some other projects at the moment. I think whitewatercolor is right on the money about paying attention to three or so values and then having variations within those broad ranges. The important thing is to look for *big* differences in value, not so much for subtle shifts in value. I tend to get overwhelmed when I think of a scale of 9 or 10 values. It's much easier to think of 3 -- light, middle, or dark -- and then have some minor variations within each range. The fewer values you can get away with, the better. There's so much more I would like to say ... but it will have to wait for later. | ||
Rekha Intermediate Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'm unsure who you addressed that to, kish, krish. I guess it was me. If yes, I think you've lost the plot. The discussion was whether we make thumbnails of values or keep a mental note of them. My question was, I repeat, what is a complex situation. Whitewatercolor "The painting is predominantly mid range and then light and then dark" These are mainly 3 values in the Betts' painting, that is, 3 comparisons to be made. Clearly this is not complex. "Of course there are variations within each range" If you are using a 9-value scale, well, that is complex. | ||
Krisha Unregistered guest |
Bonnie-- You said is well. It is before her. The lights and darks are as they are. She represented them. Artists can see. | ||
Whitewatercolor Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2006 |
Don't confuse value as tone...sorry, I meant hue--don't confuse value with hue. I see the Betts painting as three value ranges. Light, dark and middle. Of course there are variations within each range. The painting is predominantly mid range and then light and then dark. The darkest dark and lightest lights are used in the impact area. The lights are connected physically and by direction and shape. This is what I would consider a complex painting that is very well done--no wonder she wins so many awards. I doubt that she labored over where her lights and darks were going to be, especially if she was observing the subject. To simplify the subject and make it work as a painting, she probably toned down some darks and lightened other areas to make larger similar value shapes. If you simplify your paintings to large dark, mid range and light shapes and then use hues to make changes within those shapes (of course you will have accents, reflections, shadows, etc), but they will be toned down outside of the impact area so that the very lightest and darkest contrasts in that area can help bring the eye to the area you want your viewer to look at. I'm not sure who I'm responding to here, but this is exactly why I'd rather paint that write. Once you painted something your statement is pretty clear. When you write it the range of misunderstanding seems to be infinite--especially when you mix in a few misused words. P.S. I think I always get the last say of the day because my time zone is way behind everyone else. It is 3:03 here (compare with the posted time.) | ||
Krisha Unregistered guest |
I've never said value sketches weren't a tool some required. But to hold them up as something to bow down before, worship, and never turn away from is another matter. I still think it bears repeating that the whole value/ shape emphasis is from a specific school of thinking ala Edgar Whitney. Nothing wrong with that, but what I am saying is it is a school of thought, not absolute truth. | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
If the subject is right in front of you, so are the G--D---values! Quote from Krisha, not Krishna. When you're looking at nature, you're confronted with maybe an infinite number of values. To me, that's overwhelming. Whether a value sketch is art school brainwashing or not, I don't care. It helps me simplify and organize values. | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
this may represent a value structure--an intended one by Judy Betts.  this is a copyrighted image of Ms. Betts from one of her recent classes (and values was one of her intentions.) it appears as if more than 5 values are present in a monochromatic colour choice - if not more. Don't know if this helps, but I couldn't find an old master on the net that I could capture as a jpg. | ||
Rekha Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewater, "Value sketches help if you have trouble holding a complex series of events, or get lost in the mechanics of painting" When does a painting get more complex? Art books tell you to use no more than 7 value shapes which means you have 21 value comparisons. Is this complex? | ||
Rekha Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene or anyone else, I would like you to direct me to some of the old paintings where value pattern was followed to structure the painting. Now that I have learnt to look at values with squinted eyes (very difficult if you don't know what you are looking for, and by the way, colours don't just disappear only some coloured shapes are seen) I don't find in the old paintings lights leading to light areas or the darks making your eyes follow to dark areas. There is never a pattern of value shapes in the landscape and undoubtedly the figure. | ||
Eugene Intermediate Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 92 Registered: 8-2006 |
Krisha. I'm old, stuborn and art school biased. I think too many artists today "express themselves" before learning the basics. I spent a full year in art school learning to draw before I was allowed pick up a brush. And I don't regret it one bit! I learned to crawl before I walked. No offence, but this is the way I feel.  | ||
Whitewatercolor Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 |
Some people need a grocery list to go to the store, others don't. Some people write an outline before composing a short story, others just start writing. Value sketches help if you have trouble holding a complex series of events, or get lost in the mechanics of painting. They are always a good tool. It is just a tool that I'm personally to impatient to employ most of the time. | ||
Krisha Unregistered guest |
Art school bias-- I think many people who have studied art formally through art school or university have a set aesthetic and idea about how art should be practiced. For instance, go into a life drawing session and the art school trained people will 9 times out of 10 be sketching in vine charcoal on big newsprint, adding dark lines willy-nilly until the form they want emerges. I think the same thing applies when talking about what makes a painting work--the eye must have a path, a few big shapes should prevail etc etc. Go to a museum and almost all of the rules learned in art school are constantly violated or totally ignored. Look at British watercolorists. They often display a totally different approach to composition and values than American. I am telling you that many of you are espousing a school of thought and thinking what you are espousing is a universal principle. Like someone from Mississippi who insists that the only type of jay bird is the blue jay without realizing there are also scrub jays, Stellar's jays, green jays, and pinon jays elsewhere in the US. | ||
Jay Unregistered guest |
Value sketches/thumbnails must have some value (ewwwww) - else why do so many 'experts' recommend them? The way I see it, they aren't a must nor a necessity, but a tool that we can employ -when needed- to help work out the best composition or presentation - and that largely due to the nature of our medium, watercolor & its transparency, and its traditional application of working light to dark, preserving white(s) in the process. It helps in preparing a 'plan' for the painting. And yes, it also applies to opaque media - again, for what's considered 'good composition'....basically preparing a path for the eye. Some of the 'experts' insist on them - fine. Others I've seen work strictly without them. I believe it comes down to their ability to 'see' the value plan in the subject, and interpret it or 'lay it down' as they go. But it's there, in the finished painting, when they're done. I have made & used them - but I hate the process for some reason, so I seldom use them. I just want to get into the painting & not waste time 'drawing' any more'n I have to. And it shows, in my end result - my stuff sucks. <G> I'd prefer to just learn composition thru experience - I've always been hardheaded - but that's the drummer I've chosen to follow. There's more to it, but not worth detailing here. Summing: It's a tool...needed by some, not all; preferred by some, not all. I say, to each his own. ~8) /Jay | ||
Krisha Unregistered guest |
I fully accept that some people need to do value planning. Somne people also need to use a protractor and ruler to draw perspective on buildings. But these are tools. The gripe i have is when it becomes a "must" as if the value sketch is a prerequisite for a good painting rather than a possible tool to assist the artist if he needs it. My point is that it is also likely that pre-composing the values will lead the artist into a rut of compositional cliches'. A lot of great and very interesting art mimics the complexity of nature in its value array, for instance becasue it draws from what is before it rather than a simplified and reorganized value plan. The fact is that the value plan is a characteristic of a particular school of painting and not universal. I would even contend that the analysis of paintings based upon their value schemes is somewhat a biased response from those brainwashed by a particular aesthetic, | ||
Garydoc Intermediate Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2006 |
OK Krisha, if you can squint and see values, go for it...but I don't paint well from life for that very reason! I personally need to do the value sketch (even from a photo) to evaluate my composition. I'm not sure if I do the lights first or the darks first, but pro'lly the darks since the white of the paper is already there! If you can skip the value sketch stage and still get where you want, more power to you and hats off. Doesn't work for me tho'. Gary | ||
Krisha not Krishna Unregistered guest |
There are other schools of thought. Did the great impressionists or post impressionists create value sketches first? The question out below--how do you proceed without a value sketch with subjects THAT ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU (my emphasis) really astonishes me. If the subject is right in front of you, so are the G--D---values! | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Regarding Rekha's question- No offense, Marie and Whitewater, but I don't think it's a good idea not to have a value plan worked out on paper. If you can successfully do it in your head then that's probably a rare ability. To me the "heavy lifting" is done with the value sketch. Once you've successfully completed it, the painting becomes much easier. There's enough to think about when you're painting without having to make big decisions about value. | ||
Rekha Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2006 |
I am a bit bemused. Marie :"I *always* work out a value strategy in my head" Whitewater: "Don't confuse value and tone." "...before I touch my paper I know where the lightest values ... darkest values ... mid range values ... going to be" Could you please explain how you retain this sort of information while you are painting from live subjects as figure and landscape? | ||
Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2006 |
I've mentioned this before but often different scanners don't scan as well as they should. And one can also use digital cameras to photo work but the camera has to be at the exact angle or things can distort as well as the flash vs. natural lighting being different. Plus not all digital cameras are the best quality. Like mine. I don't wish to sound like a whimp either. (My definition of whimp is one who can't take constructive critizism) which truly is why I like to post my pics. I need the honest eye and review. Eric thank you for encouraging me to go darker. But (always the but, right?) tonight I went through some of my definite darker pics and I scanned them in so I could post them here tomorrow and they came out so much lighter than they really are. I'm glad I am aware how much my scanner was altering them. I know there are programs to darken, etc. funny world we live in huh, | ||
Whitewatercolor Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2006 |
I am not a patient painter and do not work values sketches out on paper. But before I touch my paper I know where the lightest values are going to be. I know where the darkest values are going to be and the mid range values. I also am thinking about whether they are split in a pleasing manner. It is hard to have three values (or more) if your dark isn't dark. You do not have to use grays, blacks, etc., from a tube to get dark darks. I've never used a gray or a black. If you get a good solid red, blue and mix some green with it, you'll get a good dark black. Don't confuse value and tone. With a black and white painting, you'd have lots of value change. You can also use many colors and have no value change. If you don't mix a strong dark and leave some white of the paper or at least a very light value, there isn't much range to work with the mid tones. I think that is one of the biggest problems beginners have. After ten years, I still struggle to push the darks. Eric's suggestions are very good. You have to let yourself go and just push those darks, while retaining the whites, and see what comes out of it. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised. | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
Raleigh--it's not possible to really evaluate your "value plan" since these are botanical illustrations rather than compositions. The white flower on white background appears washed out. The passion fruit fares better because it is darker against a white background. | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Marie- I go with the darkest dark, which is almost always pretty dark, and the lightest light, which is white and pretty light colors. Mid values then can range from light mid value to dark mid value. So, actually I pretty much use 4 values covering the whole spectrum from very dark to very light. | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Raliegh- You have artistic talent. However, (you knew there was a "however", didn't you?) I'd like to see your darks get darker. Really push yourself to make them darker than you think they should be. More pigment, less water. | ||
Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2006 |
This is not a hibiscus, it's Passion Fruit. I resized it and it lost alot of clarity | ||
Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2006 |
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Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2006 |
I've been working on white hibiscus so I feel that the shadow is the most important dark value so I start there. There's shadow in the leaves plus light so most leaves I'll work light and dark at the same time. Mid values should fall in the majority of the background and shadows in the flowers, easy to fill in later. Hibiscus change constantly. Outside the wind blows and the sun changes in seconds. I like to bring them inside so I have a little control of the light. It's a true challenge but I am going to get it! | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2006 |
I would be very curious to know how other people in the group work out a strategy for a value sketch. Do you start with a specific value and then relate everything else to it? Do you establish the lightest light and the darkest dark and then work to the middle? Or do you do something else entirely? | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2006 |
I find that values are the most difficult thing to deal with in painting. With drawing, I had the benefit of a good teacher. With color, I just do what feels right (of course, I don't consider myself a colorist). With value, on the hand, I have spent countless hours of trial and error. I think value sketches are incredibly useful, but unfortunately I don't do them often. I think it comes from working from live models and rarely having the chance to spend more than two hours on a painting. I tend to jump right in and start painting. However, I *always* work out a value strategy in my head -- whether I have time two put it down on paper is another matter. Probably if did more value sketches, I wouldn't have had as much trial and error. | ||
Garydoc Intermediate Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2006 |
At Joe's workshop this summer, I learned the benefit of the value thumbnail. I strongly urge everyone to try the prismacolor shades of gray pack that Joe sells to make thumbnail sketches prior to laying down color. The pack has 20, 40, 60, 80% grays and black pens. Errors in composition stand out well this way. If your subject matter/masses don't stand out in a thumbnail, then you will be painting tones not values to get your picture. That's OK if you like the bright tone style of painting, but a value based painting generally is considered "the norm." (Stretch a bit and paint stuff both ways!) Gary (PS I understand that there is a similar pack from Pit Pens with fewer gray tones in it) | ||
Eugene Intermediate Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 91 Registered: 8-2006 |
Krishna=== and no value plan can lead to a disaster. | ||
Krisha Unregistered guest |
I agree that upon analyzing a successful painting, values and value patterns are key. If values were not present you would have an all white or all black paper (duh!) Thus any painting has values and value patterns and so does the natural "scene" be it landscape or figure before the artist. I do feel that an over emphasis on *analysis* of values patterns prior to painting by the artist can be at times stiffling. That is becasue we tend to reduce our thinking the the familiar and if we always reduce our value patterns to the familiar, then we are perhaps not open to other perhaps more unusual or complex value patterns. Have you ever looked at a scene in nature and thought "how perfect" and just paint it with no analysis of value patterns. This often leads me to the best paintings and of course I can always go back and explain the value patterns later, but honestly, the whole thing was just intuitive. Too great an emphasis on value in the analysis stage can lead to formulaic painting. | ||
Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2006 |
Not many have posted ideas on values. I believe it is number one key ingredient. It's simple in concept but as I paint I see my mid values as darks. I like the old school of mixing my own darks and I think this is where I make my mistake by not going dark enough. So now I often mix sepia or Davy's gray with another color for my backgrounds. | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2006 |
The distribution of values is certainly one of the main factors defining the composition. I won't say that it's the only thing, but it's certainly a big deal. I generally think that one value should predominate. Pick one: light, middle, or dark. Other things to think about with composition. Bright colors, especially small areas of bright color in an otherwise neutral composition, will carry a lot of weight. Small, isolated shapes also tend to carry weight in a composition. In figurative work, the position of the figure -- especially the direction of the eyes -- can also be important. | ||
Rekha Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2006 |
Does distribution of values define your composition? | ||
Marie Intermediate Member Username: Marie Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor had a good suggestion about starting a new thread about value. Here goes ... First off, everything she says about value -- that you need light, middle, and dark values, and so forth is good, solid stuff. I agree 100%. Some other things that help me: * Value, at least for me, is more important than color. If my values are good, I can get away with just about anything with color. * Values are relative. I generally try to establish a large area of one value -- usually a middle value -- and then key everything else off the the big value. I always ask myself if an area is lighter or darker than what I already have on my page. * I also try to make the initial value a little darker than my intuition tells me. Because I have to judge the initial value off the white of the page, there's a tendency to think I'm making it darker than I really am. I have to over-compensate a little. Does anyone else have tips to share? |
