| Author | Message | ||
  Anonymous |
Wilcox's Paint Guide book is inconsistant and biased. (His "Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green" book is great; with Quiller's color mixing book you have a great pair.) But getting back to Wilcox's paint guide many people do not know that he himself did not test many of the paint he reviewed! He also fails to disclose his relationship with the paint companymhe recommends. | ||
feather |
Piper and friends of the board: I've spent much of the evening comparing and contrasting the two books...Hilary's and Wilcox's 2001 version. I made notes, which I will post later, but in general they both are rating specific paints very similarly. There are exceptions, but over all a "great paint" for Wilcox is 9 times out of 10 rates a "great paint" in Hilary's rating scale as well. I've carefully cross refernced about 30 specific paints, (which I have also tested personally and are all top performers because I bought them based on Hilary's results.) both books seem to be wonderfully done. It just depends on what your looking for out of a paint rating book because each has it's own DEFINATE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES over the other. (An example being one that you gave....Wilcox sometimes gives general color mix recipies and Hilary does not, etc... But on the other hand, Hilary offers visual examples of transparency, and Wilcox is comaratively lacking in this area etc...) I have about 40 more specific paints that I own which I want to compare and contrast between the two books. After I'm done I'll post my full review. At this point, it's nice to know that both Wilcox's 2001 book and Hilary's guide to WC paints seem serve the reader well; each just seems to have a different twist! I am glad that I forked out the 35 bucks for Wilcox's book during my vacation spending spree, it seems to be a good companion/cross reference guide to Hilary's book which I already owned. Anyone serious about evaluating their palette can't loose by purchasing both. 5 to 7 tubes of artist quality paint that you are not happy with, (or are inferior and you don't even know it yet), costs the same as buying BOTH books! In my own "green artist" oppionion - for what's that worth, each can save the reader big $$$$ in the long run, and a heck of a lot of tears! I'd love to hear anyone elses' thoughts if they own both books and have compared the two! (And of course more of your thoughts and evaluation Piper...thanks so much for adding your valuable input!!!!) | ||
piper |
Feather, I have the old edition of the wilcox guide and I love it. I also have one of Hilary Page's books. After reading her book I purchased the Cobalt yellow which she highly recommended, however, recently I got an upgrade on paint from her website which tells me that the Cobalt Yellow will turn brown as it ages. Yikes! Now I question her evaluations. I do appreciate the information in her book that explains the light properties of color and how the human eyes function physically when looking at color. Ultimately tho, if I could only have one of the books I would select the wilcox guide. Remember this is the last edition I am speaking of. I have not seen the latest. One thing I like is that Wilcox tells you what basic colors go into the making of say Antwerp Blue or Sap Green, so I can buy just the basic paints and mix my own. Let us know what you think after you finish reading the Wilcox book. | ||
feather |
While on vacation I loose my mind a little and have a habit of spending money as if I were an out of control millionaire - (vacations turn me into a "mad woman" this way)... I picked up "The Wilcox Guide to the Best Watercolor Paints 2001-2002". I bought the book because I'm anal and I wanted to compare Wilcox's results with Hilary's. I haven't had time to compare specific paint results yet, but here are some things I noted: 1. I liked how he not only listed paints alphabetically for each color family, but he included a mini table of contents for each area. This made finding specific paints much easier than in Hilary's book. 2. I'm not sure why he included so many paints that are discontinued or changed. This actually made the book a bit confusing because some paints included the discontinued type and right next to it the "new - reformulated" test results. If we can't purchase the discontinued paints anymore, then who really cares about a visual comparison between the two? (Maybe it's just me, but I bought the book to help me purchase new paints, not to look at the half used tubes I currently own which are no longer available for sale.) 3. Wilcox did not include a visual scrubbing or transparancy test like Hilary did for each paint, this was a dissapointment for me. 4. The book cost a $35 bucks!!! But he stated that all profits go only for more paint experimentation costs. (Does translate to mean his salary?) 5. He said that he included his own "Wilcox School of Colour paints", (there are only 12 of them), but I am having difficulty locating any of them in the book. (Maybe one of you out there can tell me where to find them in the book.) 6. There is no detailed color wheel included for reference. Hilary's includes one that I found most helpful and refered to it constantly when reading her book. 7. He includes a little "personal comment" area for each paint. Overall I really appreciated this extra added info that Hilary did not do too much of. (However sometimes when he didn't like a paint he seemed a bit unnecessarily cutting or nasty about it and made statements like "poor excuse for a paint", or "a waste of perfectly good pigment" etc.. when a simple discription of the paints negative and positive attributes is all that was necessary.) 8. Hilary's book includes a little "bonus" information about light refraction and color mixing potentials in the back of her book, Wilcox does not. 9. As stated by others, Wilcox's color fastness tests are a complete mystery. I'll let you know how his specific paint results compare to Hilary's when sit down and look at them together. I will be looking for consistancy in test results. | ||
drollere |
i agree with "anonymous." it's amazing how flexible different combinations of paints can be. and the best way to learn painting is to ... play with paints! | ||
Anonymous |
I often work with the a six color pallete similiar to Hilary's, but I also feel that an artist can make ANY palette work if they know what they are doing. Oner thing I love doing (to keep me on my toes, and prevent me fromgetting into a color rut) is i pick out a somewhat random pallette (but always different) palette of colors, and spend a while (you have to give it at least 5 paintings but usually more)experimenting with these colors and trying to make them work for you. Often the first painting is a little bit of a flop, but you would be surprised with the wonderful exciting results. I have read through many color theory books, but I have learned a hundred times more about color using this experimental method than following any book. The experimenting will also give youa better understanding of your regular color pallete. Before I started doinging this,I waas using a set color pallette all the time. My paintings although very different in other ways all had very similiar color schemes. It's a good way to add some spice and variety to your artwork. | ||
drollere |
hmm ... nita leland told me that the "split primary palette" idea actually originated from a grumbacher artists' brochure; everyone else has riffed off the idea since then. the SP palette always seemed really odd to me. why do we split the three primary colors (three paints) into three pairs (six paints)? because the primaries by themselves make a lot of dull color mixtures. if they make dull mixtures, why do we still try to make them the basis of color mixing? because color theory says so. some people believe in color theory the same way other people believe in marx or lenin, and these people tried to "fix" the problem by adding more colors that were "still primary." (scarlet and rose are "still red," ha ha!) but the split primary palette still gives poor mixtures in the violets and greens. so a better approach might be: "ok, golly, i've broken down and admitted i need to use six paints ... what is the BEST CHOICE OF SIX PAINTS i can possibly make?" it's hard to know what you're doing with colors unless you know how the color wheel is actually laid out. the color wheel at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color7.html is based on a widely accepted color measurement model, and shows how the different types of paints are spaced around the color circle. mixing paints close together on the circle usually gives you saturated (bright) colors; mixing paints that are far apart always gives unsaturated (dull) colors; mixing paints that are roughly opposite each other gives mixtures close to gray. "primary" colors have nothing to do with it. by that logic, you can simply forget about the "primaries" and choose paints that are spaced approximately the same distance around the color circle. you DO NOT want to choose a "cool" yellow and a "warm" yellow because one yellow is enough: choose a solid middle yellow that can swing either way. then excellent choices for all six paints might be: 1. benzimidazolone yellow PY154 (cadmium yellow light works too) 2. cadmium scarlet PR108 (perinone orange works too) 3. quinacridone rose PV19 4. ultramarine blue PB29 5. phthalo blue (green shade) PB15:3 6. phthalo green (yellow shade) PG7 (viridian works too) try it and don't blame me if you roll on the floor screaming with joy. | ||
birdpainter |
Feather: (Seems logical that "Birdpainter" should be communicating with "Feather"!! Actually, I don't use Pthalo Blue for greens that much. The exception is to mix it with Raw Sienna or Burnt Sienna to get a deep dark green good for pine trees. Otherwise I get most of my greens using Lemon Yellow and Ultramarine. That does violate a "rule" in that Ultramarine is a blue on the red side and therefore you have blue, yellow, and red together. This dulls the resulting green a bit but I prefer the semi-neutral greens I get this way. Also, I use Lemon Yel. and Indigo (or Paynes Gray) to get a dark green. Use Pthalo Bl. and Lemon Yel for very bright greens, yellow-greens, etc. Hope this helps rather than confuses you. Just start mixing and see what you get that you like. -Sid | ||
feather |
Cheep Joe does not sell Hilary Page's books (I'm surprised, why not Joe?). If you want one, buy them directly from her web site....they are about four dollars less this way; and she autographs them for you. feather | ||
feather |
Thanks birdpainter, I really appreciate your feedback!!!!! Could you please describe to me the range of greens that you achieve with mixing phthalo blue with your yellows? (If possible, describe using typical names for paint. For instance: "with my phthalo blue I can mix colors similar to turquoise, antwerp, winsor blue," etc.. You just might have the answer to one of my nagging questions! feather | ||
birdpainter |
Feather: Some comments, if you don't mind my butting in! I'm not sure about Hillary Page's recommendations re. split primary palette, but I use Pthalo Blue for my cool blue (with Ultramarine for the warm blue). The rest are Lemon Yellow (c), New Gamboge (w), Cadmium Red (w), Permanent Rose (c). This is basically the split primary palette recommended by Nita Leland in her book "Exploring Color". They work very well for me. I have to admit, I do use other colors too. Particularly, burnt sienna, burnt umber, sap green, benzimidolone orange, neutral tint, and indigo--as "convenience" colors to save time mixing. | ||
feather |
Regarding Hilary's six color split primary palette: Do you think that magneta is too pinkish for a "primary red" or Phthalo blue too blue-green for a "primary blue" in a six color split (warm and cool) primary color palette?? Feather | ||
Oma |
I haven't seen the Wilcox book but have H. Page's and agree with everything Feather says about it. | ||
piper |
I just got her book `Color From the Start'. What she says about the visual (light) reaction makes a lot of sense! I have not tried her specific palate yet, but have done some playing with near matches. I think the full painting will be spectacular. | ||
feather |
Has anyone tried Hilary Page's warm and cool six-color split-primary palette? (Lemon Yellow, Middle Yellow, Scarlet, Magenta, Ultramarine, and Phthalo Blue) Any and all feedback is appreciated. I currently use a warm/cool 6 split-primary, but I made up my own. I've put so much study and work into it {countless hours of making mixed color reference (recipe) sheets for myself etc.} I'm afraid to switch because I'd have to repeat this process, but I'm tempted to try hers because I like how her palette is more transparent than mine. (My current palette is: Cadmium yellow pale, 175 lemon yellow, cobalt blue, Ultramarine, quinacridone red, and cadmium red. I focused on warm and cool primarys as well as lightfastness when I developed it.) Fearfully: Feather | ||
feather |
I have Wilcox's book "The Artisit's Guide to Selecting Colors" published in 1997, and "Hilary's Guide to Watercolor Paints". I found conflicting information between the two. Wilcox's book is very non-specific when it comes to comparing/contrasting specific brands of paint, and is much more geared towards oil and acrylics than watercolor. (Regularly throughout the book, specific ratings for lightfastness etc.. were not even available for watercolor paints but posted for oil or acrylics). For what it's worth, I did learn some from Wilcox's book, but I found Hilary's book MUCH more informative and comprehensive. Not only was it was watercolor exclusive, but she offers a visual comparison of the same color of paint made by multiple manufactures!!!! This is exactly wanted and has/will save me loads of cash by avoiding paints that have the same name but are actually "stinkers". I am VERY pleased by her book, and I can't imagine how much time it took her to do such an extensive study. I only wish that she would have expanded on her personal comments section under each paint, and identify her personal favorite brand for each color in cases where the scores were close. Feather | ||
dirtybird |
I have a comment on "The Michael Wilcox guide to watercolor paints" , It's useless to the people who may need it the most, beginners. I actually went to a bookstore to buy it because I hope to be really knowledgable one day about all aspects of watercolor painting. After browsing through it for a few minutes I realized that this was a bunch of crap. Feeling guilty about thinking bad things about a book which had been spoken of with such reverence I went to a university library and checked it out for two weeks.(Actually two different books with the same name)After two weeks the info is still not useful. Is there another book on this subject? | ||
drollere |
before you buy the latest edition of the michael wilcox guide to watercolor paints, you might want to read my review posted at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/book2.html#wilcox1. i should mention i have no association with either michael wilcox or hilary page, but comments are welcomed. | ||
apiper |
So, tell me about Hilary Page. How do I contact her and what is the name of her book? I read the earlier edition of wilcox's book and appreciated much of the information, however have not seen the newer version. Thanks for your time in checking it out. Also, I tend to get discouraged in depending on the manufacture to provide information on their paint. It seems that symbol for lightfast ratings are not consistent. Some have stars, some have numbers. Then too you need a magnifying glass to read the tubes info. Often price stickers cover the tube data too. I do know that that a friend had a watercolor painted about 8 years ago. For some reason she decided to reframe it and was stunned to see how bright the painting was where it had been covered by the mat. She painted the picture and never placed it where direct sun would shine upon it. Sigh.... I really want my work to be permenant. After reading your review I am wondering if there is any reliability source I can trust..... sigh again. | ||
Jennifer Parker |
does any body know any thing about holbein iridori watercolors. are they worth investing in? | ||
apiper |
dollere, Just read some of Hillary Pages color theory on about.com and Thank you for mentioning her. Her theory looks good so far. Going to find out more. Thanks |
