| Author | Message | ||
  Kukana |
Good Pat, Im looking for to seeing it. Hey I love my scanner. I got it at costco...Its a Cannon Cano scanner and its awesome. Check them out. PS. Are you Patinsc? If so we've missed you. If not we still welcome you! | ||
Pat |
Feather, I'm not the smiley-face person you referred to, sorry! Kukana, I am hoping for a scanner for Christmas, then I can share how the granulation medium makes texture when dripped onto a wet or damp wash. | ||
feather |
Thanks for the information Anon:o I bought some of the stuff two years ago and I haven't tried it yet. Please tell us more about it. PS, I think I know who you are. I for one have missed your input on this board! I hope that you come back to visit more often, but please bring along your yellow smiley faces rather than frowns. | ||
Kukana |
Apology accepted Anon. (We're an easy lot of souls!) Just give yourself a name ..any name..and we're all cool! I like your idea of dripping the medium. Kind of an experimental style. Can you post something you've done that way to show us a sample??? | ||
Anonymous |
Sorry, all. I was having a bad day and should not have vented here. I actually got frustrated, not about the comments on the topic of granulation mediums, but when I was perusing the general discussion on "new ideas for artists to get exposure." I clicked out of there because it had a lot of irrelevant comments and clicked onto the granulation discussion. Obviously something there ticked me off. I'm going to take a pill now. I do have a little something to offer on the granulation meduim Winsor Newton puts out: The instructions on the bottle say to mix your paints with it, but I've had very good luck dripping it onto a wet wash and just letting the stuff run. Happy holidays, Anon :o] | ||
Oma |
Hey, Anonymous - It boils down to put up or shut up! No one is twisting your arm to join us. If you really want to be part of this group then stop bitching and offer something worthwhile to start a thread. Your critical comments serve no useful purpose except possibly for you to vent your frustrations. There are people out there with comfortable couches who are professionals at helping folks overcome their problems. Why don't you try that route.? | ||
Kristine |
~ As for causing nauseousness, you who are staying anonymous, stop hiding like a hippopotamus. Seriously, like others have suggested, start your own thread with whatever art theme you would like to discuss. We also like to have factually precise discussions as well....just don't have delusions of keeping so many bright people from running the gamut of creativity. | ||
Cathy7 |
Anonymous, you just granulated my medium. LoL (that was a joke)hee hee. And you know what? I think you participate enough that we can make you number 7! No wait... you were here before I was... can I be number 7? That's my number you know. Have a happy day, it's almost Christmas ya know! | ||
Cathy |
You may be totally surprised with this, but I have visited other artist discussion boards and found that frequent participants seem to share jokes and are very supportive of each other in their endeavors. And imagine this... they sometimes talk about personal stuff too. I love Cheap Joes... but you know what is best about it? The wild and crazy people who contribute to this forum. Sorry you're sick anonymous. Nausea is bad stuff. Hope you get well soon and join in the fun. | ||
Kukana |
Is that you Jean..???...Honey get a life already! | ||
Kukana |
Hey anonymous, Very simple solution. Start an interesting disscussion and don't join the ones you find nausiating. (Am I brilliant or what!!!????) When you know we're just chatting, don't chat with us. Go to or start a thread that's to your 'serious' liking. And for goodness sake, go call your therapist and take your medication. By the way, why did you choose this thread to start a fight about something so unrelated as granulating medium to air your dirty laundry? Just curious??? | ||
Anonymous |
Hi Jean. | ||
Anonymous |
Hey Jerry! "Those who cannot see themselves are blind." - Anon Keep on writing, buddy! You are just illustrating my point. | ||
SutureSelf |
Anon, you're put off when we don't deal with a question seriously and nauseated when we do. It must be difficult to strike just the right balance. If too few persons for your taste are posting many of the messages, that's only because those who aren't posting have chosen not to post. Those of us who post have come to this board independently of one another from disparate parts of the world of our own individual free wills. We are not a clique or an exclusionary club, but familiarity over the months has fostered a friendliness among us that manifests itself in posts that are not strictly art-related. If you are un-moved to join the discussions, put off are you are by chattiness and nauseated as you are by unselfish comprehensiveness, that's unfortunate. Neither your diffidence nor your pique is my or anyone else's responsibilty. What is it you're trying to accomplish with your post? Are you hoping to change our behavior, to conform this discussion board to your private ideal-discussion-board fantasy? You say "give us a break," yet you acknowledge that you don't know whether "anyone out there" shares your sentiment. If you want to improve the discussion board (and we all do; nobody posts with the intention of degrading it) then post something worthwhile. I've expressed opinions, imparted facts, posted images of my works, complained about how the site is administered and indulged in the irrelevencies you so distain and I've done it all - for better or worse - without the cloak of anonymity. Please shed yours and join the community. Jerry Fried | ||
Anonymous |
I haven't been to this site in a couple of months, but it's glaringly obvious that it consists mainly of the same 6 people stroking each other and sharing private jokes. Do you know how silly and off-putting you people sound? (I say "you people" purposely because I know there are other people out there,like me, who would like to discuss art topics in a more straightforward manner.) I know it's fun for you guys, but do you know how boring it is for the rest of us to wade through screen after screen of updates and banter on someone's cold symptoms? And when there is an attempt to answer a question in a serious manner, the writer goes on and on ad nauseam...yuk! C'mon, give us a break. I love Cheap Joes and I hoped this would be a discussion forum rather than a chat room. Anyone out there feel the same way I do? | ||
Linda |
Thank you folks, y'all ARE very kind, and this does indeed make it a pleasure to visit this site. We never know how someone else will respond to our artwork, and that's JUST how I want to move people, just like you did me. Will be held by the brush for a while, so...take care y'all! Thanks again! | ||
feather |
W&N perm masking fluid must be left to dry overnight in order for it to work at all. It is thin liquid but must be applied THICKLY for it to work at all. Furthermore, once it dries it's a NASTY YELLOW-ISH tint. I applied this mask to a painting I started months ago which I've spent perhaps 80 hours on (self admited detail freak), and it has sat untouched for months because I'm still trying to gather the "balls" to scrape off the masked areas with an exacto knife to get down to "white" before I dare spend another moment of my time finishing it up. I am still rolling in severe agony thanks to this product. Needless to say, this stuff has is now looking up at the walls of black plastic deep inside a trash dump somewhere. If ever it is marked "new and improved" I might try it again...but the next time I'll be SURE to first throughly test it out on scrap paper before trying it out on a real painting! | ||
Lex |
By the way, Linda, I wouldn't hesitate to exchange the bottle of W&N Permanent Masking Fluid for an ordinary art masking fluid or frisket. When I discovered the stuff was unsatisfactory my first impulse was to e-mail Winsor & Newton customer service to discuss the issue with them. Guess what? W&N lists no e-mail address on the website. Some customer service. So the only way to get their attention appears to be through public displays of customer dissatisfaction. I usually buy my supplies from a local shop (I try to support local businesses whenever possible, assuming their prices are within a reasonable ballpark). When I returned the bottle I simply explained to the manager why I disliked the Permanent Masking Fluid and suggested he discuss it with his W&N supplier. He was receptive to feedback from customers, which pleases me. | ||
Lex |
Mercy, Linda, you give me more credit than I deserve. J That was only the top portion of a larger painting! The rest of it has been posted elsewhere on this forum. But you've given me an idea - perhaps I should scale down the scope of what I was attempting with this painting and try another version. | ||
Linda |
Lex, your painting is hypnotizing and seems to move by itself. The contrasts of the white vs. black, and blue vs. orange are stunning. The simplicity of this painting makes a profound statement which I cannot verbalize, but it reaches to a deep level within everyone, I imagine. The contrast of this simplicity to the the fine-ness of the detail in the blue has yet another powerful impact. I would love to have this on my wall so I could gaze at it while thinking. I think it would help me see more sides of an issue than I normally would without it! I read, in "Glorious Garden Flowers in Watercolor" (I think that's the title, with yellow flowers on the front jacket) that Schminke masking (as in latex) would not lift pigment. This implies to me that in a painting, with a part already painted, and an adjacent area needing to be worked on, but you needed to protect this painted part with masking (over the top of the paint), Schminke masking would be called for because it would not lift the pigment on the painted part when it was removed. I wonder how well this works, Schminke masking. I, too, have looked for it and am unable to locate it, but I suppose I could call Schminke. Please, tell me about the subtle effect glycerin in the rinse water has. Thank you for the information, and the idea to exchange the bottle of "permanent" masking fluid. | ||
Lex |
Hi, Linda - I haven't used any lifting mediums (like the W&N) so I can't comment. I think the real trick is to using non-staining pigments (avoid phthalo blue or green, for example) with a paper that withstands reworking and scrubbing. Personally, I love certain staining pigments too much to do without 'em so I've learned to live with the occasional mistake by trying to incorporate it into my style. But my style is very loose so it's pretty easy to work around the happy accidents (as Bob Ross called 'em). Arches paper seems to hold up pretty well to scrubbing and reworking. But with any paper that's been scrubbed hard enough to mar the surface sizing it's easy to repair using ordinary Knox gelatine - a couple of us have described out methods elsewhere in this forum. As for W&N's permanent masking fluid, I disliked the stuff so much I exchanged it for a bottle of ordinary masking fluid. I simply couldn't make the permanent stuff work - it wouldn't resist staining pigments well enough to preserve clean white areas. Most folks will say the best way to preserve whites is to paint around 'em. I'm not always that well disciplined so I do occasionally use the rubbery masking fluid. Wish I could offer you some useful tips for the permanent stuff but I simply didn't like it. I'm terrible at painting around clouds so I developed my own method. My technique for clouds involves saturating the entire sky area and dabbing a brush of blue paint (and sometimes red, yellow, etc., for sunsets) into the wet paper at intervals. I tip the paper to and fro to let the paint migrate around in a sorta controlled randomness, while being careful to preserve some white areas. Here's a sample:  Glycerin - I've made a travel kit out of Van Gogh tube paints squeezed into a fold-up plastic palette. I mixed a drop of glycerin into each well to enhance rewetting. Works great. You might also experiment with mixing up some glycerin into your rinse water - maybe a few drops at a time - just to see whether you like the subtle effect. I'm not sure I understand your question about Schmincke paints/mediums? I've never seen any Schmincke mediums but love their watercolor paints. Schmincke and Sennelier watercolors have virtually identical working characteristics and suit my style perfectly. The Sennelier is a slightly better buy but Schmincke offers some colors/pigments not available in the Sennelier line. For my money the Schmincke Madder Brown can't be beat as a basic flesh tone that can be blended to suit various needs. | ||
Linda |
Hello, I'm new here, as well as new (ish) to watercolor. I thank you Lex, for the fun suggestion of alum, for we all need more fun in our lives. I also thank you, drollere, for looking a bit deeper and teaching us to see for ourselves commercially available additive's properties in truth. I, being new, thought these were tried and true products, these new mediums, and purchased several. What hints might y'all have for the Lifting Medium? The Permanent Masking Medium? Pure Glycerin? The Permanent Masking Medium doesn't work as well as I'd imagined, but I'm so new I haven't experimented enough with it to come to a conclusion yet. I have already decided, however, not to rely on it, but to build my own self-discipline in saving lights and lighter values. When using it, prepare to be adaptable and flexible if it does not what one wishes. Glycerin -- what is it used for beside keeping exposed pigments softer, more moist? The Lifting Medium I've not opened yet, though I imagine marvelous clouds lifted out of the colorful sunset sky, clouds which radiate with light right through the clarity of thalo...oh how lovely I imagine this will be! Please share your delight and experiences with these fun additives, while at the same time sober us with findings. And is it really true Schminke masking does not lift pigment? | ||
drollere |
on the topic of motive ... art materials companies often use the same materials manufacturers. for example, i know that the suppliers of "art quality" cadmium pigments provide to several watercolor brands, and the "proprietary" information in that case is just the exact shade of orange or yellow each brand requires, the pigment particle size, and the quality (purity). i think the issue with the watermedia additives is either that these products actually are not all that stable, or that they are so recently developed that they have not been tested thoroughly. either way, the paint manufacturers simply don't want to make that statement on the record. either way, you should test the stuff carefully, and use with discretion. | ||
Maidensmythe |
Thanks for the info on granulating medium. I love my granulating watercolors, but have never tried the medium, but I was tempted. Love your website! | ||
Lex |
Thanks again, oh, mysterious drollere, for your ongoing efforts. J As a former OSHA safety investigator I ran into similar problems trying to uncovering the "proprietary secrets" that manufacturers were obliged by federal law to disclose on their MSDS. Rarely did revealing those ingredients compromise the manufacturer's competitive edge (we kept their secrets by agreeing not to release such info to others under Freedom of Information Act requests) - as you noted, it was usually marketing hype. Sometimes they merely wanted to disguise the fact that they bought "their" product from another source and relabeled it. As for using alum as a granulating medium - I said it earlier and I'll repeat it: do as I say, not as I do. The stuff is acidic and may compromise the archival integrity of your work. I, on the other hand, intend to experiment with and enjoy the stuff. At least until I become bored with it and use just good ol' paint 'n' water. | ||
drollere |
a few words of caution about watercolor (or watermedia) additives. as part of the usual due diligence for my watercolor site (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/water.html), i made inquiries of the watercolor manufacturers regarding their additive products. i was surprised to find that none were willing to disclose the contents, manufacture or stability of their products. for example, winsor & newton would not even tell me *how* the products were tested, or even *whether* they were tested, by claiming "that is proprietary information." think about that for a minute. a paint company won't tell you whether their product has been tested, because that is *their* special secret! i have spent two decades as a business consultant and entrepreneur in several industries, including the high tech industries, and i understand very well the legal and competitive reasons for proprietary restraints on disclosure of information. and in this case, the main restraints seem to be related to marketing: they won't tell you, because the information can only disappoint you. they also said that their products are formulated in collaboration with artists, blah blah, which guarantees nothing about the quality of these products. (what is an artist supposed to tell a paint chemist about the safety of using the product in a painting?) first conclusion? GO SLOW WITH THE ADDITIVES. it looks nice now. how will it look a year or two from now? second conclusion: TEST THESE THINGS carefully. make a test painting with one half done with additives and one half without, then repeatedly moisten it to see if mold, insects, discoloration become a problem. leave it in the sun to see if it alters. flex it repeatedly to see if the colors become brittle, or the gum adhesion is weakened. swab with a mild acid, like vinegar, to see if there is a chemical change. to lex's original post ... alum used to be commonly used to bind rosin to cellulose fibers as an interal sizing. because it is acidic, it has largely been superseded by neutral modern alternatives. mixing the stuff in your paints cannot be a happy thing to do to a watercolor. i'd use the commercial products -- they cannot be any worse, and at least you don't know for sure that they are as bad. | ||
Cathy |
P.S. Dake, I guess I forgot to mention I really like your work. Oh and you're probably wondering how my last comment was related to granulating medium... well... I guess it wasn't. :-) | ||
Cathy |
Dake, I guess I haven't seen enough of your work to see that you do different styles or themes, but what I have seen you certainly have your own style! The way you use your color and the flow of your paintings I think I would recognize anywhere as being yours. Oh and uh, about the group therapy... seems to me that as artists we paint what we feel, we are a very emotional, sensitive group of mankind. Why can we not discuss and express our feelings and daily experiences in the written word as well as in our paintings? To share experiences are wonderful and strengthens each other. Imagine, what would it be like to have Van Gogh or Da Vinci participate in a discussion board such as this? I would like to know what moves them, what they think and feel. Did they get root canals? :-) I think that sharing knowledge mixed with our opinions and feelings make this place delightful and interesting. I also care about the people I have gotten to know here and like to hear what is happening. (Remind me to ask Kukana if a shark ate her husband). Oh geeesh that was a long way to say; Dake why do you think you are like a bee buzzing from flower to flower? | ||
Dake |
Hi Pat, No i have not studied under AP but consider his book "Painting People in Watercolor- a design approach" one of my two favorite watercolor publications and always have it on hand when i start to lose track. My other guru is Charles Reid and his very well written "The Natural Way to Paint"...these have been my two guides for many years. To Laura and Lex many thanks for your comments. Lex i entirely agree that the world we reveal to our children is the greatest artistic contribution any one can make...and we must *always* remain aware of the "use by date" of the clay. Thanks for reminding me Lex. | ||
patinsc |
Dake, A question please. since you refer to Alex Powers quite often I am curious as to how you know of him? Since he is a local "boy". Have you studied with him in the states and are you familiar with his ex-wife's work.(Janet)? | ||
Laura36 |
I have to agree with Kukana,Dake, I like your work very much over Tolooie's. There is a whimsy is yours that is not there in the other person's work. I can relate to the working full time, taking care of kids more time, playing piano for the church, teaching wc classes one night a week,AND trying to go to graduate school, I have just one class right now. Painting is a release, the outlet that lets me communicate with myself, be alone, away from the whirlwind of life. Keep painting, no matter what comes off the end of the brush. It's like playing the piano, you won't get good unless you practice. | ||
Lex |
Hey, Dake, look at it this way: if art is 90% persperation, the remaining 10% is commiseration. Occasional whinging is allowed - even required. I know what you mean about trying to balance work, home and art. When I babysit my grandkids - which is often - it's difficult to do much else than entertain them and look after their needs. But it's a unique situation for me: helping to mold these kidlets is part of my creative outlet and I really enjoy it (I'm one of those guilt-ridden dads who feels he neglected his own kids and now tries to overcompensate blah, blah, blah...); and I don't hafta do it every single dadgum day! Eventually they go home and I can paint again. And I find inspiration in the doodles and scribbles the kidlets make. I wish my own work were so uninhibited and free. Anyway, you shouldn't fret over not concentrating on a particular style. If circumstances seem to lead you toward "unfocused" exploration, so be it. Follow that muse - don't wait or look for another; she may not arrive. | ||
Dake |
Kukana, You're so nice. Man sometimes i get so disillusioned with my stuff, I end up with a whole bunch of different modes that i can turn to but never seem to settle long enough on one particular style or theme to make real headway. I'm like a bumble bee buzzing around a huge garden not knowing which flower i like best,no wonder i spin out from time to time. I think it's partly because i work full time and care for my children when i'm at home and my wife's working (i work shifts)Just don't have dedicated time to plan and work toward a real productive goal. It makes for a very fragmented painting life...which tends to reflect in the art itself. As Alex Powers counsells, it's better to focus on one particular style to make your work recognizable..I have trouble sticking to that.Sometimes out of tiredness...sometimes out of boredom...it's about focus and concentration. I long so much for a break in work so that i can do what i really love. Anyway i'm sounding like a whinger...using this forum as a group therapy session which i have been known to heap scorn upon. Thanks again! Dake | ||
Kukana |
Dake, I checked out the Tolooie website and buddy, he has nothing on you! Yes, his work was nice but your work is so much more full of emotion and soul.Your work has a freshness and uncontrived movement to it that is hard to create. I can hear the musci and smell the smoke in the room when I look at your Blues series. You have mastered your look and style with a flair that make your work hard to stop looking at. I would love someday to see your work in person. Im sure the internet doesn't even do them justice! By the way, How big are your "Blues" pictures? | ||
Dake |
CORRECTION that was meant to be Tolooie not tolooi. | ||
Dake |
Funny you should mention coffee, someone just put one on my desk as i read your words, as for berries...any good suggestions,perhaps some vintage fermented berry juice would do! I wonder about alum and it's medium to long term interaction with pigment/paper etc but as you said the chemicals and treatments in papers and supplemental stuff used to give effects are also unclear. Have found another artist who paints musos like me,he does it better though. His name is Shahab Tolooi.I really love his value dominant style, reminicent of Ivor Hunt and Alex Powers...my favorite watercolorists. www.tolooi.com | ||
Lex |
Hey, Dake's up from hibernation! Have some coffee, mate, eat a few berries... | ||
dake |
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ah eh yahwn splutter scratch scratch zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. | ||
Lex |
Wow, Dee, you've made my day. So often I feel I'm taking more than giving so if my little accident has encouraged you then that's a treat for me. Let us know how your adventures go once you've experimented with this little trick. | ||
Dee |
OK...I am a lurker, but I am SO excited about this! Thanks so much for the great info here. Now, if I were a serious baker, I would know about alum....but since i am lucky to find the kitchen, much less the spices/baking soda/baking powder....well, I guess i better head out to the grocery store. Thanks so much...this is just Too Cool! Dee | ||
Lex |
Here's a sample of what the alum/water solution can do:  | ||
carol |
Lex, I love the looks of granulation texture with watercolors. I tried some of the Winsor Newton stuff but didn't see much of a difference. I'll try the alum. The instructor I had for the chinese brushwork used alum ( just a pinch) in the glue used, on the backing sheet of rice paper, to ward off bugs that might like to eat the paper. | ||
Lex |
If you've kept up with Winsor & Newton's watercolor media they've fairly recently introduced some new stuff to the old standbys of gum arabic, ox gall, etc. One of the new media is called a watercolor granulating medium. Now, I love granulating colors. I go out of my way to use 'em whenever possible and have even tried various tricks I've heard of to enhance granulation, such as using mineral water. It doesn't work very well so don't bother with the expense. But over the weekend I discovered, quite by accident, a dirt cheap additive that will make any pigment granulate, guaranteed. It's plain old alum, the stuff every serious baker already has handy. I'd heard or read somewhere that alum has been used to size paper (albeit at the possible cost of archival integrity - more later...). So I mixed up a batch, just a guesstimate, adding about half a teaspoon to a pint of water. I brushed the stuff onto a sheet of Strathmore 300 Series 140 lb. CP paper (normally an indifferently sized paper that does not withstand much reworking) and left it to dry. I still haven't gotten around to trying that custom-sized sheet, so, nothing to report there yet. But I became curious about the effect of the alum-water solution as a rinse water. So I dipped a brush in and tried a stroke of phthalo blue. Zounds! The stuff granulated so thoroughly I could have counted every individual particle of pigment, was I so inclined. I repeated this with ultramarine (which, being a granulating color already, went absolutely crazy), viridian, azo yellow, quinacridone red and burnt umber. Same result with every pigment - dramatic granulation. Obviously this wouldn't be suitable for every color or every application. And I'd definitely reduce the amount of alum to better control the effect. But it has possibilities and is considerably cheaper than Winsor & Newton's stuff. The drawback? Alum is acidic. How much that affects the archival properties of a watercolor, I don't know. It is reportedly used in sizing papers that are listed as "acid free." We know that some papers contain a buffering to offset acidity so perhaps those papers should be more accurately advertised as "acid controlled" or "neutral pH." And speaking of acidity, I wonder how concerned Winsor & Newton is about the issue when at least one of their new watercolor media contains acetic acid (if I'm remembering correctly it's their new "Watercolor Medium," a broth of gum arabic, acetic acid and...whatever). I'm not making this up, it's listed right on the label and if you sniff the contents the odor is unmistakeable. But for those who are inclined to experiment, well, the alum powder solution is cheap and fun. |
