| Author | Message | ||
  Eugene Advanced Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 184 Registered: 8-2006 |
re; Engle book. Thanks, Eric and Marie. Sounds like a fun book, but I'm more of a direct painter. So I don't use many tricks. Seldom lift, scrub, splatter, etc. So it's probably not for me. | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Eugene, I also have the Engle book. It's loaded with techniques. Lots of masking and spraying and pouring. She lets the paint do what it wants and then she pulls a painting out of it. She seems to spend a lot of time on a painting scrubbing, reworking, etc. Not too much on design here, just one small chapter. I don't use the book much, but I do like her paintings, although the masked out areas look "cutout" to me. I'd recommend it to those looking for some different techniques than you might not be familiar with. Also, FYI, Engle was one of Tom Lynch's teachers. | ||
Marie Advanced Member Username: Marie Post Number: 199 Registered: 8-2006 |
I have the Nita Engle book. It's interesting. There's a lot of material about techniques for pouring and splattering and such. It's pretty far removed from my style, but I don't regret getting it. | ||
Eugene Advanced Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 181 Registered: 8-2006 |
Does anyone have Nita Engle's book Making a w/c paint itself? or something like that. sounds interesting, is it any good? | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Lots of sensitive folks here. Oh well, another couple of names have come and gone. | ||
Whitewatercolor Advanced Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2006 |
Kisha: Don't leave. We all have to much to gain from each other's experience. To everyone else--Please, in the future, let's all try not to belittle others feelings. If they are sensitive about something--they are sensitive about it and who are we to pass judgment on what is or should be important to others. I know I've stepped back from this forum for a few hours because of comments that I've been sensitive to. It is hard to communicate in writing. You can't see the body language associated with the comments, and that it important. In order to be a good artist, you need to be sensitive. I think I tried to start a thread on this (maybe the thread was misunderstood). Painting allows us to communicate in a direct, bold way without being misunderstood. Anyone who has been on this site for a while understands that some (Kisha included) are bold, direct, and to the point. Their painting reflects that direct communication(which is wonderful). I appreciate that immensely and have learned a lot from that style of communication. We've already lost Bill on this site for similar reasons. Maybe we should have a code for something that we find offensive. If a comment is made that we consider to be judgmental and unfair, we can just simply post an X. It could mean any number of things (including a-----e) but mostly that you feel an unfair comment has been made and maybe we can get beyond it without hard feelings. Stay Kisha! Stay SZ! Come back Bill! | ||
Garydoc Intermediate Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 78 Registered: 8-2006 |
I never said just let the "a-holes" alone. I want honest open and even heated discourse here. I just don't care for everyone getting p-o'd everytime someone disagrees. Kisha et al, don't go away. No one needs to go away. Just let others disagree with YOU (all of YOU) without taking it so damn personally. You can be a great artist and teacher without anyone agreeing with a single damn thing you say or do. Anyone with a slightly open mind can learn from someone you disagree with, even if its only to learn what doesn't work for you! Keep the discussion HOT without becoming a hothead. That's the key. Be argumentative, its a good thing! There are assholes out there, but it doesn't have to be YOU (anyone out there feeling the heat?) (There...I'm not being "neutral".) Gary | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
One more thing-- I don;t understand SZ's rage. However, I have noticed that whenever there is a flareup like this, many "neutrals" invariable jump in and ask the others to tone it down and get along. That's great, but it often lets assholes off the hook. That's a bypoduct of "can't we all just get along" that I am not willing to buy into. Another one (me) bites the dust. | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
Sz: I was trained in colour theory,long before I took up watercolour and didn't feel I needed this book. Me:The fact that the Wilcox book duplicates, as you say, knowledge from your formal training, would actually be a point in its favor. I withdraw the other comments and will stick to this main point. Believe me, I understand your anger, becasue I am developing my own for the same reason--It is all perception and my perception is I can't respond to you in an open fashion. So you and I will disappear together. It will be good for the group. Controversy is not good. Intense discussions are not good. It's better if we just get along and avoid strong opinions. Since I am not at home in such an antiseptiic environment, bye to you all. It ain't worh it. On one side are thiose who want to dish it out but can;t take it in stride. On the other side are those who want no waves at the cost of honest discourse. | ||
Whitewatercolor Advanced Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2006 |
Value is king, always has been king, always will be king. No disagreement there. | ||
Garydoc Intermediate Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 77 Registered: 8-2006 |
There is nothing wrong with discussing art, books, color or anything else on this site, or having strong opinions about any of the above. There is something wrong with taking every negative comment about these subjects personally. I agree that there are too many ruffled feathers about NOTHING! If I hate to paint color over value, it is only MHO and not a personal insult to those who disagree. If you choose to disagree, then do so LOUDLY if you wish, but don't tell me I'm wrong, cause 'for me' I aint. Anyone who takes this personally and finds themself upset by this, remember that "if the shoe fits" applies. Lets all settle down and discuss art, technique and theory, disagreeing agreeably. Gary | ||
Eugene Advanced Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2006 |
This is ridiculous! A lot of ruffled feathers about nothing. | ||
Whitewatercolor Advanced Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 138 Registered: 10-2006 |
SZ - I do not see anything wrong with what you said. You simply stated an opinion and then clarified it, to make sure it was not misunderstood. The controversy surrounding this book is exactly why I find it interesting. When there is difference of opinion, there is intrigue (same as the black issue). That some find it really good and some no good at all, makes it a worthy read, in my opinion. But I'm always one to pick up the rear. Your input here is valuable and I hope you don't disappear. | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
And lastly, Kisha, you can have all the high-handed remarks you like, but don't try to turn around my statement: I do not like the bloody book, and that is my perfect right--PhD or not is irrelevant. After all it is my time, and my interest to select those books I wish to learn from or not. I don't need to be educated by you! | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
Well, sorry Jay if my remarks seemed uncalled for, but I always and I do mean always feel as if my thoughts are taken out of context and often challenged -- so I will disappear as I have in the past. It just isn't worth the weight in water to argue about a book, the colour black or otherwise. Civility has never been held high here and apparently it continues to decline. Thanks for the lessons in public spirit. | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
SZ-- Wilcox's book is not just about color theory but about a carefull designed palette using specific pigments. Becasue of this pigment specificity, it is far more practical than mere theory. However, assuming you are 100% correct in your response, let's apply a bit of rigorous logic: The fact that the Wilcox book duplicates, as you say, knowledge from your formal training, would actually be a point in its favor. If I wanted to know about nuclear physics and didn't have a PhD in it, then a book that gave me the knowledge of a PhD would be a useful book. It would be disingenuous, not to say downright snobbish, of a PhD to give the book bad reviews because he already received the knowledge in his education and so didn't personally need it. | ||
Jay Unregistered guest |
Right after it came out, I bought the Wilcox 'Blu&Yel' book - heck, the title alone was enuff enticement for my curiosity. Others might not agree, that is their privilege - but I consider it almost required reading, if only for what the warm/cool primary pairs 'theory' imparts. I also appreciated what I learned from it regarding browns and where they properly fit into the color wheel, as well as his coverage of values. And SZ I've gotta say, I'm really surprised at you. Your first sentence there, "I thought I made it clear...", struck me as unusually harsh and uncalled for. I'll allow that might not've been your intent ('absence of textual expression')...but it comes across as rather backhanded - as if you're forcefully interjecting argument/repulsion at something that wasn't even necessarily directed at you. There is indeed room for differing opinion...you'd previously stated your position and it was accepted. No need to twist the knife. And since the favor is granted, you should reciprocate and allow others to rest with /their/ opinions as well. I'm really repulsed by the remark - else I wouldn't be saying anything about it. It's the kind of thing that happens all too much in this 'bunch', and largely the reason I have basically curtailed my involvement. Please pay more attention to your choice of words folks....if they don't contribute something positive, and only intend to re-state declared opinion, I for one can do without them. Just look what it's already led to. Go back only a few months ago & scan over the list of participants, and compare it to the present's. Then consider whether you want that trend to continue. I don't mean to preach, just trying to lend harmony...but that 'simple' utterance has left me shocked. /soapbox /Jay | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
I thought I made it clear that Wilcox wasn't for me--he may be right for others. I was trained in colour theory,long before I took up watercolour and didn't feel I needed this book. Hope again there is room for differences in opinion.} | ||
Whitewatercolor Advanced Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thanks for the recommendation on Wilcox. I don't have that book and will have to look it up. Sounds like something I should have. Again Thanks for the Ranson Hake brush recommendation. It is the best new info I've had in the past six months! I'm having a great time with them. Bonnie | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
Wilcox's book, Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green, is great. It provides a clear and pragmatic way to use and understand the use of a really ideal limited palette. Before you short shrift Wilcox, consider that his goal is to provide a warm and cool of each primary plus a few earths and show you how to mix any color from that. Moreover, he explains what's going on beneath the surface so to speak so you will mix out of knowledge, not hit or miss randomness. It fulfulls a different, much more fundamental and vital niche than the other books mentioned though they are good too, they are more icing on the cake of color knowledge. And I don't think you can actually get the knowledge Wilcox provides elsewhere in anywhere near as complete and thorough a form. It's a vital book. | ||
Eric Unregistered guest |
Wilcox has more than one book out there. His book rating the watercolor paints has been criticized by several, especially the Handprint guy. But his Blue and Yellow Don't make Green book has a lot of fans. I think it's almost essential reading, although you might be able to get the same information elsewhere. | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
Quiller, Nita Leland, C. Schink and others have been far more helpful (to me) that Wilcox' book (which I resold after 5 days). I just thought it didn't make enough sense to hold onto it. I also found Hilary Paige's book superior to Wilcox--but we all have different taste!  | ||
Garydoc Intermediate Member Username: Garydoc Post Number: 76 Registered: 8-2006 |
I know I don't often take a strong stand, but IMHO...Value Rules!!! Garish colors can't make a picture into art, but a well executed monochrome can still bring tears to the eye. A duochrome made with an umber and a blue can capture a mood and a scene perfectly (except for the missing colors) and that is the essence of representational art. There are other philosophies and different goals in art (non-representational) but I'm not personally into that and feel that the great stuff in this discussion board (most of what you guys are posting in fact!) is great because you've nailed the values and broken down the subject into the right shapes. (by the way, I know this is the wrong thread!) Gary | ||
Anonymous Unregistered guest |
Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green by Michael Wilcox! | ||
Raliegh Intermediate Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 73 Registered: 8-2006 |
Kisha, I skimmed this thread and I think there's is alot regarding value and limited. Dollere mentions Quillars book "Color Choices" which I found terrific (I checked it out of my local library). I know there are alot of other threads around this time that talk about the limited palette. | ||
pattygrafton |
I just bought "Watercolor Mixing Directory: A Visual Guide to More than 2,000 Mixes and Glaze Effects" by Moira Clinch and David Webb. (It was just published in February of 2006. There is an earlier book by Moira Clinch also, but this one is new.) I really like this book because it has helped me mix some really beautiful colors. I tried doing color wheels with 3 primaries, but I didn't like the colors I got. Some of the colors and the grays I get from this book are very rich. My two favorite colors are Burnt Umber and Cobalt Blue. Although the actual paint mixes don't match the book exactly, they are a good starting point when looking for a way to mix a color you want. | ||
abbie |
Thanks John for the information. I'm hoping to maybe to find this book at the library today (save a few bucks--to buy more paint probably. I really seem to go through it) | ||
John Preston |
Abbie, I don't see why they wouldn't. The important thing is to have the same PIGMENT Dobie is using, that is, if she is using Viridian and Cobalt blue to mix a blue-green color, you will want to have the same thing on your palette, and not a Viridian or Cobalt "Hue" made of a substitute pigment like Pthalo. American Journey is good about labeling their contents.(AJ Viridian and Cobalt are the real thing). There ARE differences between manufacturers with the same pigments but not to the extent that you couldn't do Dobie's exercises. Different brands obtain their pigments from a variety of sources and use propritary formulations. The difference, in the end, becomes one of personal preference. Brand for brand, real Viridian will always be a transparent, granulating, not too staining color. One brand more so, another less so and one will appeal to you. Dobie does use some colors that American Journey may not have, though. But you should be OK for the most part. | ||
abbie |
I've noticed on this thread and others that people are speaking highly of Jeanne Dobie's book, "Making Colors Sing." I could use help in this area too and I'm thinking about buying the book. My question is that I have invested quite a bit of money in American Journey paints. I don't want to have to buy any others in order to follow along with a book. Can I do the exercises with the Am. Journey paint? Advice appreciated. I'm a new artist...thanks! | ||
drollere |
dobie's book is good, but you should check her "updated" palette before you buy a lot of paints -- http://www.jeannedobie.com/palette.html sometimes a color wheel is useful to sort out the many colors of paints, which clarifies how they should be mixed. for example, http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/wheel.html a page on how to plan and create color mixtures with a color wheel is at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color5.html#mixmethod stephen quiller's book "color choices" is very good at explaining color mixing and also the use of different color schemes in visual design. his later book "painter's guide to color" is not nearly as good, in my opinion. "besides trial and error" -- actually, when all is read and said and done, that's exactly how you learn to mix paints. there is nothing in any color wheel or color theory book that will prepare you for the amazing range of colors and textures you can get by mixing burnt sienna and ultramarine blue. paints are mysterious substances, and you have to see what they can do by painting, not reading. the key, then, is to start out with a small number of paints -- no more than a dozen paints, and less if you can -- and mix each pair of paints in different proportions to see what you get. fun for the eyes! | ||
Kukana |
Glad you like it. It's one of my favorites! My other favorite is Frank Webbs "Strengthening your painting through Dynamic Compositions". A real bible for the dynamics of art. If you can't find that try Edgar Whitney Book, newly re-published. It great too! ...A classic! | ||
viba |
just received jeanne dobies book...making colors sing...thank you all so much...read 1st 2 pages and already i understand...i think i was totally confused by the myriad colors available and did not know what to mix with what..i'm happy as a cat in the corn crib... | ||
carol |
Yes, Jeanne Dobie's book also helped me understand color mixing. | ||
dazey |
There is also another book which I have found to be quite helpful. It is a small book named "The Watercolor Painter's Pocket Palette" subtitled "Instant, practical visual guidance on mixing and matching watercolors to suit all subjects" | ||
viba |
thank you for the info...will look for jean dobies book...forgot my user name..hope this it right..so i don't have to be anonymous anymore..thanks again | ||
Cathy |
I am with Kukana on Jean Dobie's book... it changed my life! Seriously, I had struggled with mixing colors and everything easily turned to mud. Jean's book gives understanding on what makes colors work together and why mixing some colors turn muddy. It really was a milestone in my watercolor journey. I recommend getting a book for reference, it's great! | ||
Kukana |
Buy the book "making colors sing" by Jeanne Dobie. Buy her colors, start with page 1 and do EVERY EXERSISE...page by page. I took the class and thats what we did..it was enlightening to say the least. Very informative. I highly reccomend very one do it! | ||
Anonymous |
I, too, would like the info Cathy Gilber requested in simple understandable language and involving more or less basic paints and perhaps a listing of transparent, semi=transparent and opaque paints..i would like to purchase the artist quality paints but feel i cannot afford too many "exotic" colors and i tend to use a limited palette, anyway...thank you | ||
Cathy Gilber |
As a beginner, can you tell me the best and fastest way to learn color mixing (besides trial and error)? Is there a good guide out there that tells you what colors to mix to get what you are trying for? I purchased Windsor Newton tube paints. Any help you can give me would be a ppreciated. Cathy |
