| Author | Message | ||
  Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2006 |
Marie: I print the note cards myself. I can print them for half the cost of having them done. Yes it is economical. I have over 400 images and find the card packs sell best because they make a nice gift. I choose six different images that are similar, ie., six chickens, six poppies, six red florals, and group them in one pack. I've been doing this for a couple of years and I've worked it out. If you want to discuss more, contact me through private email at oakridge@gorge.net. I'm don't feel comfortable posting the details on an open forum. | ||
Marie Advanced Member Username: Marie Post Number: 130 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, how do you go about getting cards and prints made? Do you photograph your work yourself? Do you work with a local printer? What quantities of cards do you print? What are the economics of printing notecards? | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
Hats off to your success! Your work from what I can tell warrants it! | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would guess that half of my income is prints, cards, etc., and about half originals. My frames are inexpensive since I do all framing and matting myself and the commission on most of my work is 10%, since it is sold through a successful cooperative. I do have a unique situation. I also have made enough the last couple of years that I could support myself without another income. | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
BTW WWH2O--What % of your total art income is from prints--very curious. Also what % of a sale is devoted to commission, frames, and other expenses? | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
I understand what you are saying--the art provides a supplemental income. That's not the same thing as saying you live off your art as some people in your situation claim. You actually just proved my point. Most artists who claim to be supporting themselves actually have another source of money such as a partner. You do, however, as artists go, sound very successful. | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have three partners who make their entire living off of their art. One does metal art, one pottery, and one jewelry. It can be done. The other three partners and myself do have other incomes or partners with incomes, even though my art income is as much or more than theirs. But, without the income from my art, my lifestyle would be cramped and I wouldn't be able to buy whatever I feel I need to increase my knowledge and experience. | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
I guess what I am saying is that artists who claim they support themselves by their art are often lying to us and themselves. If you root around like an anteater in a termite hill you will find a working spouse, a trust fund, or a fat retirement check. In other words, it is a hobby. This has been discussed before, I noticed, but I thought I'd weigh in on it since the discussion was veering towards there. | ||
Bill Unregistered guest |
I've also long suspected that many (probably most) FINE artists (I'm not talking about the fabulously famous ones)aren't actually making any money when you subtract their overhead (unless maybe they sell prints). Overhead meaning supplies, time, mortgage, insurance , groceries, utilities, vacations, books, botox, church or cult tithing etc., car, insurance, gasoline, college for kids, a new roof, vet for the pet etc. | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
I definately won't be doing this. I am not a vanity artist (a vanity writer pays for his own publication expenses). thanks George for the true expenses. I have always thought that if artists were honest in the way you have been, very few are actually in the black. | ||
Raliegh Member Username: Raliegh Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2006 |
Selling art has to vary in different regions. Though I agree anyone who sells has a full time job in the marketing end. | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2006 |
I originally started drawing because it was the thing I found most pleasurable...from the time I could pick up a pencil. As time and circumstances passed, I found that I could make money and have more fun doing what I like most--creating my own world. Art to make money is a job, you just replace one way of making money with another. It all depends on where you find the most enjoyment. I'm not a wealthy person so I either had to replace my income by making art of be allowed only bits and pieces of time to create art after I made my living. | ||
Rekha Advanced Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 112 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, did you originally set out to paint to make money or for pleasure. It seems like selling is more difficult than doing a day job from what you describe. | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2006 |
Oh, and I didn't mention the damage to frames and print covers, etc., of packing, unpacking, and handling. That can be significant when doing events. | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'll admit, I buffered it. George is right. I happen to sell prints, cards, and magnets. They are my bread and butter. I won't even do arts and craft fairs. I was talking about fine arts fairs. It is not worth my time unless I sell at least one large original or several medium sized originals. I am not investing extra for the prints, etc., because I already have a market for them and I keep a stock on hand. Again, it is best to start with a local bazaar and lower priced items. If you can't sell there, it isn't worth the risk. But there are always exceptions and I hesitate to discourage that exception. My first big leap was an Festival of the Arts, in a small community. I was invited in, sold several original paintings and it started me on the path to galleries. After doing the galleries for a few years and realizing that you'll never really make much money with a few items on each wall (it takes years for people to see a body of your work), I did a year of smaller booth events (one evening a couple of hours) for first Friday art events or weekend fairs and festivals. Then I was invited into a cooperative store and have spent my time pulling things back out of galleries and stores, because I make more with direct sales through my own store. The coop is only seven artists, who all do very different work from each other. We each work one day a week and have minimal overhead. But, all of the artists were already successful at Saturday markets and galleries, before they were invited to join the store. I still do shows, I don't go looking for them but if I'm invited. I currently have a show at the Columbia Gorge Interpretive Center in Stevenson, Washington, which has been up for two months and will continue through December. I had a show at the local (Hood River, Oregon) library in October and November. I have three pieces in a juried show at a regional gallery in the area, and have several pieces in another monthly show in a gallery 20 miles away. I guess what I'm getting at is selling art takes a lot of hustle and manuvering. It doesn't just happen you have to work your way through the channels. When I started out it occurred to me that people had to see my work in order to know I was an artist. I gave a piece to the local hospital. I worked hard to get pieces placed where they would be seen. I donate to auctions and causes that I support. There are lots of ways to establish yourself but I chose to start with my local community and it has been rewarding. | ||
Rekha Advanced Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2006 |
You paint a fairly grim picture, George | ||
George Unregistered guest |
It’s more than just the few hundred for the fee. I talked to one artist that has a classy looking booth he paid $3,000 for. Then there is also the cost of transporting the booth, and all the artwork, to the fair. This usually involves a trailer, if you don’t have a very large van or truck. Add in the cost of framing enough artwork to display. Another thought – there are fine art fairs and arts and crafts fairs. Watercolors sell better at the first than the second. Also, most watercolor artists sell more prints than originals. If you have the prints made and they don’t sell, you are stuck with the prints. My guess is that there are a lot of watercolor artists with stacks of prints under the bed looking for a market. | ||
Whitewatercolor Intermediate Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2006 |
I've done small local art fairs. It has always been worth it for me because I only do them within driving distance and I generally make 750 to 1500 per day--but, there are other watercolorists at these fairs and the majority sell nothing. So I would try a couple of bazaars or farmers markets, where you can just set up a table before you invest in a canopy and other hardware. You can get a feel pretty fast as to whether your work will sell or not. I've seen lots of artists invest in the canopy, go and sit for a weekend a couple of times a year in the hopes of selling something. There are usually Christmas bazaars available. If you sell say--three originals at any venue (not to relatives), I would say it would be worth the time and effort to set up and try some art fairs. I definitely wouldn't pay a few hundred dollars in booth fees without having some prior experience with selling my work. | ||
SZ Unregistered guest |
In my experience there are "fairs" and "fairs. I was at one in Scottsdale, AZ in March last or perhaps April, and it was flooded with topknotch art. It appeared as if the vendors did well, although I didn't see anyone's cashbox  However, at another fair in Taos, I saw rather poor examples of art and craft, and would have been rather disappointed if I had vended myself. If you can find out more about other artists' experiences at the fair, and how they fared (smile) in watercolour, you'll get a better idea of whether or not it is worthwhile. Good exposure can pay big dividends later even if sales at the event may not pay their way. JmHO. Good luck in either case. | ||
Rekha Advanced Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2006 |
Depends on what your ultimate goals are. If your primary aim is to see whether your art is appreciated, is this the right avenue? If you wish paint only to sell, then go for it. The expense now would be small compared to the returns. | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
I just received an invitation to exhibit in an outdoor art fair (later --not in the winter). I was told the attendees were of the affluent type more likely to purchase fine art. I have to pay a couple of hundred dollars plus put together a display. I've never done this before. Since it is only for 2 days, I am wondering if it's worth it. Even if I sell some paintings, it seems like I will have some big expenses before its over. I've never been to these fairs but have been told that watercolors don't sell all that well in general anyway. I know this is vague but any thoughts? (I am not vain enough to want to show my wonk at a loss). However I've never tried to sell my work so this is new territory. | ||
Kukana |
Thank you! Best to you too. | ||
Anonymous |
I agree. Well said. I hope your mother and grandmother were as successful. May your daughter follow in your footsteps and continue your success. Sounds to me like you really have a handle on your demographics and really understand your market. I would like to make one point here and that is art is art, whether it be commercial, fine or what ever. You are truly an artist, can you believe I said that. I have been to your site and I found your work has a certain beguiling quality to it. To all of the people here who are looking to succeed I would say, look how hard she worked. Best of luck which I am sure you do not need but still bol. | ||
rainbow |
Since I am a newbie, perhaps someone can direct me to waterproof watercolor paints, fireproof and rip free foundations to paint upon, so that when someone ultimately purchases my works, they can be assured it will withstand whatever catastrophe may set upon it. I really want to make sure they get their money's worth. | ||
dazey |
Well said, Kukana. And congratulations for all your successes. You have worked hard and they are well deserved. I certainly appreciate your sharing so much of your experience with us on this board. It has been very helpful. | ||
Kukana |
Great Point! I have always maintained that, for me, if I want art to be a business, its all about knowing my demographics, price points and perfecting the product. Being on the road was the best way I could think of to do a marketing study. After all, my girl friends and I could sit around for hours trying to second guess what will sell but after taking it on the road for 36 shows last year and running it past roughly 400,000 people I was able to get some pretty great stats. Through that education I was able to narrow down the list of my images from 90 to a more manageable number. I actually have 50 that are year round sellers with another 10 seasonal favorites. By the time I was picked up for national distribution I was able to give them numbers they couldn't have paid for. The research was invaluable. When a store owner now asks them (my reps and distributers) which are best for what area I can tell them because I did the leg work...the hard way! The art show route was grueling. But it was relativly cheap to test the market and it gave me the contacts to push me to the next level. I make no bones about the fact that what I am doing is a commercial business. I still enjoy my fine art but thats not what I'm building my new house with! What I do feel blessed about is the fact that I was able to take my fine art skills and venues for sales and dovetail them with my new commercial enterprise and make a living at art! I continue to do shows for three reasons. First, the instant feed back on new work is the best way I know to see if I want to take the next images to print. Nothing like sticking them out in front of 75,000-100,000 people in two days to get a reaction. Second, The contact for new venues to licsense my work out are numerous at shows. I rarely don't get at least one inquiry at each show. My work is being produced in ceramics, stamps, stickers, stationary, calenders, metal garden art and fabric. Three of those contacts came through shows. Three..I like the art shows. I like the other artists and I like the art show customers. I demo at shows and have a blast talking to kids exciting them about the arts. With the youngest kids I play with mixing colors to to make green from yellow and blue. With older kids I talk about careers in the art, with adults I encourage support of the arts for the community, etc. Through my commercial business I am also able to promote fine art. You once asked if I respect art. I am the daughter of an artist who is the daughter of an artist and my daughter is also a full time artist..(Hows that for art in the family??) I love art...ALL ART. My love of art and respect for the arts is higher than just about any profession I can think of. It is the embodiment of the creative mind and spirit at any level.It allows the artist to express feelings and thoughts where there are no words. That kind of expression can't be stiffled by fugitive paints of a watercolorist or the rain on a sidewalk chalk artist. It is eternal even if the medium isn't. It is true that the art that last centuries is a witness of history and of its people but the message in my work is too. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still make a sound? It does and so does art. It spiritual in nature and eternal in its beauty. I love art! | ||
jandrie-kulkana |
Well I did it again. Signed in as I intended. Must be a mistake somewhere here. I am sure you can find it for me. As to business sense jake, oops! There are a number of stats that would dispute this. I will give Kukana credit for tenacity though. It is a lot of work to go the route she has and succeed at it. I wish all of you well as it is tough for most artists to make a living. I will leave this charming group with a question. Why do artists do what other artist, who are not succeeding, for what ever reason, are doing. Marketing is like art. Each person must find their own way. I suggest you gather numbers on who is buying art and why. Haave you done a study of who buys your art? which types of pictures, as you said you have 60 in print, and where. What shows. Break it down to numbers. A lot of artist have told me art is not about numbers but it is whether it be business o | ||
Dake |
OOhhhh why didn't someone tell me we were having a spat, I must admit I've not checked the board for a week or two and felt things were a bit quiet for my psychopathy. But like a seagull in a feeding frenzy I must have smelt the ketchup(we call it tomato sauce)and just want to say, I stopped using alizain OR lizard crimson through good advice offered on handprint and reflected here. I will stand behind Kukana here and Jane, two respectable artists who have a track record to prove it.I would challenge ANY artist ANYWHERE to demonstrate better practical business sense than Susan Toronto. So own up or bugger off anonymous. | ||
Kukana |
Signed in and spelled both names wrong to boot..bravo for at least trying! | ||
jandrie-kulkana |
Now I have signed in for you. Obviously you have decided I am some kind of crackpot so I say again Take the info for what it is worth. anonymous | ||
jandrle |
You know, I had an instructor in Photoshop come to me at a photo lab where I was working to have a digital print made. She had a cat when I used levels rather than curves to bring back a missing arm in the digital photo print. She cried that levels is a lossy correction, meaning that digital information is lost when using them to make a change... I told her the whole arm had blown out and I was going to restore it in the image... she shuddered and left, realizing that she needed to let me do my job. Sometimes too much knowledge can be a real pain in accomplishing what we are striving for. We have all met "Ivory Tower" artists... my guess is that my artwork will last as long as its owners do and that major museums won't be cruising the estate sales in search of my paintings! I am not diminishing the importance of my paintings, just not getting caught up in the wrong issues. What is still important to me is growing, developing my vision, what I am seeing and choosing to paint. That anyone buys my work still astounds me. The only other point I can make is how can a person have to energy to get all wound up over what paint people use but be too lazy to type in a name??? Jane | ||
Kukana |
Anonymous..we'd dearly love to have a conversation with you about why we should all be using non fugitive paints. We just don't like it when someone has the time to say that we don't have any respect for our work or our patrons and but doesn't have the time to type in a handle so we at least have someone to direct a repsonse too. Call yourself "anything"..but call yourself something. Its called internet ettiquite. We all agree that we should not be using fugitive paints.That is OBVIOUS!!!! But we all have a few pieces out there with some on..either ones that we did before we knew it was an issue or becuase we just can't duplicate the color elsewhere. (Find me a non fugitive alternative for Opera Pink and I'll positively jump for joy.) I paint with it, then take the piece to print using a non-fugitive ink especially made for me in Seattle. I currently have over 60 images in print that are distributed all over the country. I also I show and sell my originals. I keep them under sun screens at outdoor exibitions and shows, I always warn my customer to do the same and promise to replace or fix if there is ever a problem. There is also another issue to be addressed and that is that there are different levels of lightfastness to all paints. It is difficult for me to paint with only the very highest rated ones. It limits my pallette too much. I knocked out all the obvious ones but a lot of us have some of the medium level ones still on our pallettes. We'd all like to wave a magic wand and be as knowledgeable as Dollere. We all use him and his website and literature when we think about it but sometimes we just want Opera Pink!..Whats a girl to do??? All my customers are on a mailing list and I send them Christmas cards each year so they have my contact number. To date, no one has ever complained. | ||
Anonymous |
Pissy? It was an honest business question from an artist who happens to be a very good business man. I think you ned to examine your response to my post. as to the anonymous thing: I am just too lazy to take the time to register. Take the info for what it is worth, but I will tell you you are making a mistake useing fugitive colors. | ||
Oma |
I'm with Kukana on this. Signing a message "Anonymous" does not give your observations much credence! | ||
Kukana |
Isn't it interesting that when someone wants to say something pissy, they climb up on their throne and then sign their name "Anonymous" instead of identifying themselves and having a decent conversation??? Interesting observation of human nature. | ||
Anonymous |
Don't you have anymore respect for your work, and your patrons, than to use fugitive colors? It DOES give art, and professional working artists, a bad name. | ||
John Preston |
Waterdog ain't foolin' about this one. It's a VALUABLE tip. (Pastelists, too, or anyone showing works on paper.) | ||
waterdog |
Another consideration when showing outdoors: if it's cold - 40ish- at night don't load pics in vehicle the night before setting up. If you do, then some get hit with sun, the glass will sweat. I know from experience. Didn't have any permanent damage, but a friend had 2 or 3 ruined by condensation running down on mat, even on down on to the watercolor. | ||
Dake |
Oh yeah you're in the Northern hemisphere...if you have an outdoor show in Australia face south okay! | ||
Kukana |
Yes Backspin, I too worry about that. However I have yet to have a problem..That that is including a 5 show tour to Florida! 1) I always request a North Facing Booth...Sometimes I get it. 2) I Try to stay away from fugitive colors except for a couple I can't live without! (Opera Pink!) 3) I keep originals rotated to the back of the booth during the sunny periods of the day and hang larger framed prints toward the front. 4) I have awnings for all sides of my booth plus I have cute big umbrellas straped to each corner post that provide extra shade. I simple incorporate them into the design scheme of my booth. 5) I worry a lot...for some reason I think that if I fret enough the fugitive paint gods will take mercy on me and not make my work disapear into nothingness! | ||
Dake |
G'day Backspin, Drollere would say avoid using fugitive pigments , a good start i would think. Kukana is the pastmaster or should i say pastmistress of successful outdoor shows with watercolor, I'm sure if she is near a computer she will advise. One would hope that just one day in all but blazing sun( the sun wont be in the same place all day either will it?) will not adversely affect your work. Just pick a place facing south or east to minimise the direct sun. | ||
backspin |
I'm just wondering how you accomplish this. I may be participating in a 1-day outdoor fair this fall--I don't want my paintings being hit by sunlight all day! What solutions have you all come up with? |
